4 ms·

All the Linux with none of the freedom. Yaaaay?

by AdmiralAsshat 7y ago

falcrist 7y ago
With Microsoft, this part is almost inevitable. Same with Google/Microsoft and privacy...
- alexanderdmitri 7y ago
  10 years ago I would have thought it unthinkable a Windows machine would be sending data behind the scenes about me to a remote server. This privacy policy[1] is insane: > Together, diagnostics and feedback are how you and your Windows 10 device tell Microsoft what's really going on. As you use Windows, we collect diagnostic information, and to make sure we're listening to you, our customer, we've also built ways for you to send us feedback anytime, and at specific times, like when Windows 10 asks you a question about how something is working for you. > There are two levels of diagnostic data: Basic and Full. [...] This data is transmitted to Microsoft and stored with one or more unique identifiers that can help us recognize an individual user on an individual device and understand the device's service issues and use patterns. > Specific data items collected in Windows diagnostics are subject to change to give Microsoft flexibility to collect the data needed for the purposes described. For example, to ensure Microsoft can troubleshoot the latest performance issue impacting users’ computing experience or update a Windows 10 device that is new to the market, Microsoft may need to collect data items that were not collected previously. For detailed info about the data that Microsoft collects at the Basic level, see Basic level Windows diagnostic events and fields. For more info about the data that Microsoft collects at the Full level, see Diagnostic data for full level. > We use the Basic level of diagnostic data to improve Windows. We use the Full level of diagnostic data to improve Windows and related products and services. > Some of the data described above may not be collected from your device even if your Diagnostic data setting is set to Full. Microsoft minimizes the volume of data we collect from all devices by collecting some of the data at the Full level from only a small percentage of devices (sample). By running the Diagnostic Data Viewer tool (available on newer versions of Windows), you can see an icon which indicates whether your device is part of a sample and also which specific data is collected from your device. Instructions for how to download the Diagnostic Data Viewer tool can be found at Start > Settings > Privacy > Diagnostics & feedback. > You can view diagnostic data for your device in real time by using the Diagnostic Data Viewer. Note that you will only be able to view data that is available while the Diagnostic Data Viewer is running. The Diagnostic Data Viewer does not allow you to view your diagnostic data history. If you click the feedback panel on the right edge, you get sent to another Microsoft privacy policy[2]: > We also use the data to operate our business, which includes analyzing our performance, meeting our legal obligations, developing our workforce, and doing research. In carrying out these purposes, we combine data we collect from different contexts (for example, from your use of two Microsoft products) or obtain from third parties to give you a more seamless, consistent, and personalized experience, to make informed business decisions, and for other legitimate purposes. > We share your personal data with your consent or to complete any transaction or provide any product you have requested or authorized. We also share data with Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries; with vendors working on our behalf; when required by law or to respond to legal process; to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our products; and to protect the rights and property of Microsoft and its customers. > You can also make choices about the collection and use of your data by Microsoft. You can control your personal data that Microsoft has obtained, and exercise your data protection rights, by contacting Microsoft or using various tools we provide. In some cases, your ability to access or control your personal data will be limited, as required or permitted by applicable law. 1. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4468236/diagnostics-feedback-and-privacy-in-windows-10-microsoft-privacy https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4468236/diagnostics... 2. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement [edited to give excerpts from the second privacy I encountered trying to provide feedback to the first one!]
  - Hawxy 7y ago
    It's not really that insane. Microsoft just provides a very detailed privacy policy that covers every single possible scenario and clearly explains it to the user. In any generic platform privacy policy, the same lines you quoted from their privacy statement would be summed up as "We collect [insert here] as required for operational and security reasons", "We use your data to perform business functions" and "Your data may be shared with third-party service providers such as payment processors". It's nothing scary and is what's required for Microsoft to operate as an entity. I'd also be careful how you interpret it. Microsoft's privacy statement applies to literally every single product and service they offer and acts as a catch-all, and from there they have independent statements that cover individual products in more detail. In this case, the diagnostics and feedback page describes all of the scenarios that they collect and use the information, and therefore the global statement isn't relevant.
    - posix_me_less 7y ago
      Read this part: > one or more unique identifiers that can help us recognize an individual user on an individual device and understand the device's service issues and use patterns. They have a file on each user, it is straight out of 1984.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
throwayEngineer 7y ago
No need to duel boot. Not sure if I'll need to use virtual machines as often for testing.
ISL 7y ago
The real advantage is that, if all of the applications are written for linux, one day, society may notice that the binary blob is vestigial/removable.
- solotronics 7y ago
  What if the next windows kernel was based on Linux/POSIX and it had VMs to run legacy windows programs?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    I'd probably just give up computing entirely and go live in a cave, that's what.
  - devenblake 7y ago
    It's a theory and nothing more but I hope very much Windows 11 will be named W-11 and be just a really accessible Linux that looks and acts like Windows but will have the Linux kernel underneath the fluff. Maybe CMD.EXE could even be re-worked into a shell for compatibility with BATs, and Microsoft could work with Wine to make a perfect version that could work with any Windows binary. Far-fetched and barely plausible but a boy can dream.
  - EvanAnderson 7y ago
    Why would MSFT throw away decades of development that have gone into the NT kernel? NT is an advanced and, to my eye, very elegant kernel. Win32 is much less so, but NT isn't Win32.
    - meruru 7y ago
      Because sunk costs and it may make sense to offload their kernel development efforts to focus on what makes them money.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Windows makes them plenty of money, billions of it.
freehunter 7y ago
To be fair, plenty of people care more about the "Linux" than they do about the "freedom" part. Case in point: macOS. Basically everything that makes it "macOS" is proprietary, but it gained popularity because it was mostly Linux-compatible. Unix compatibility is worth quite a bit on its own, Linux wouldn't have gotten half as far without it. And Unix is historically proprietary and closed-source.
- AceJohnny2 7y ago
  > And Unix is historically proprietary and closed-source "Unix" the brand name, maybe, but "Unix" the source code less so. BSD was based on Unix. The story of why Linux became popular instead of BSD is that BSD was mired in a copyright fight with AT&T over that relationship at the time. Per http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch02s01.html http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch02s01.html who was active at the time (and before he became today's wingnut) "It would take another two years and the great Internet explosion of 1993–1994 before the true importance of Linux and the open-source BSD distributions became evident to the rest of the Unix world. Unfortunately for the BSDers, an AT&T lawsuit against BSDI (the startup company that had backed the Jolitz port) consumed much of that time and motivated some key Berkeley developers to switch to Linux. > Code copying and theft of trade secrets was alleged. The actual infringing code was not identified for nearly two years. The lawsuit could have dragged on for much longer but for the fact that Novell bought USL from AT&T and sought a settlement. In the end, three files were removed from the 18,000 that made up the distribution, and a number of minor changes were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add USL copyrights to about 70 files, with the stipulation that those files continued to be freely redistributed. -- Marshall Kirk McKusick The settlement set an important precedent by freeing an entire working Unix from proprietary control, but its effects on BSD itself were dire. Matters were not helped when, in 1992–1994, the Computer Science Research Group at Berkeley shut down; afterwards, factional warfare within the BSD community split it into three competing development efforts. As a result, the BSD lineage lagged behind Linux at a crucial time and lost to it the lead position in the Unix community."
- posix_me_less 7y ago
  Macos is not "mostly Linux-compatible". It has unixy tools from GNU and other places, but it has little to do with Linux. Ecosystem, native development is different. Some tech is badlyemulated, e.g. Docker containers. If anything, use of Macos shows that people found a way to work with a shiny unixy desktop software without Linux and without software freedom.
ekianjo 7y ago
None of the freedom and plenty of tracking while you do just about anything on Windows.

All the Linux with none of the freedom. Yaaaay?

falcrist 7y ago

With Microsoft, this part is almost inevitable. Same with Google/Microsoft and privacy...

alexanderdmitri 7y ago
10 years ago I would have thought it unthinkable a Windows machine would be sending data behind the scenes about me to a remote server. This privacy policy[1] is insane: > Together, diagnostics and feedback are how you and your Windows 10 device tell Microsoft what's really going on. As you use Windows, we collect diagnostic information, and to make sure we're listening to you, our customer, we've also built ways for you to send us feedback anytime, and at specific times, like when Windows 10 asks you a question about how something is working for you. > There are two levels of diagnostic data: Basic and Full. [...] This data is transmitted to Microsoft and stored with one or more unique identifiers that can help us recognize an individual user on an individual device and understand the device's service issues and use patterns. > Specific data items collected in Windows diagnostics are subject to change to give Microsoft flexibility to collect the data needed for the purposes described. For example, to ensure Microsoft can troubleshoot the latest performance issue impacting users’ computing experience or update a Windows 10 device that is new to the market, Microsoft may need to collect data items that were not collected previously. For detailed info about the data that Microsoft collects at the Basic level, see Basic level Windows diagnostic events and fields. For more info about the data that Microsoft collects at the Full level, see Diagnostic data for full level. > We use the Basic level of diagnostic data to improve Windows. We use the Full level of diagnostic data to improve Windows and related products and services. > Some of the data described above may not be collected from your device even if your Diagnostic data setting is set to Full. Microsoft minimizes the volume of data we collect from all devices by collecting some of the data at the Full level from only a small percentage of devices (sample). By running the Diagnostic Data Viewer tool (available on newer versions of Windows), you can see an icon which indicates whether your device is part of a sample and also which specific data is collected from your device. Instructions for how to download the Diagnostic Data Viewer tool can be found at Start > Settings > Privacy > Diagnostics & feedback. > You can view diagnostic data for your device in real time by using the Diagnostic Data Viewer. Note that you will only be able to view data that is available while the Diagnostic Data Viewer is running. The Diagnostic Data Viewer does not allow you to view your diagnostic data history. If you click the feedback panel on the right edge, you get sent to another Microsoft privacy policy[2]: > We also use the data to operate our business, which includes analyzing our performance, meeting our legal obligations, developing our workforce, and doing research. In carrying out these purposes, we combine data we collect from different contexts (for example, from your use of two Microsoft products) or obtain from third parties to give you a more seamless, consistent, and personalized experience, to make informed business decisions, and for other legitimate purposes. > We share your personal data with your consent or to complete any transaction or provide any product you have requested or authorized. We also share data with Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries; with vendors working on our behalf; when required by law or to respond to legal process; to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our products; and to protect the rights and property of Microsoft and its customers. > You can also make choices about the collection and use of your data by Microsoft. You can control your personal data that Microsoft has obtained, and exercise your data protection rights, by contacting Microsoft or using various tools we provide. In some cases, your ability to access or control your personal data will be limited, as required or permitted by applicable law. 1. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4468236/diagnostics-feedback-and-privacy-in-windows-10-microsoft-privacy https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4468236/diagnostics... 2. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement [edited to give excerpts from the second privacy I encountered trying to provide feedback to the first one!]
- Hawxy 7y ago
  It's not really that insane. Microsoft just provides a very detailed privacy policy that covers every single possible scenario and clearly explains it to the user. In any generic platform privacy policy, the same lines you quoted from their privacy statement would be summed up as "We collect [insert here] as required for operational and security reasons", "We use your data to perform business functions" and "Your data may be shared with third-party service providers such as payment processors". It's nothing scary and is what's required for Microsoft to operate as an entity. I'd also be careful how you interpret it. Microsoft's privacy statement applies to literally every single product and service they offer and acts as a catch-all, and from there they have independent statements that cover individual products in more detail. In this case, the diagnostics and feedback page describes all of the scenarios that they collect and use the information, and therefore the global statement isn't relevant.
  - posix_me_less 7y ago
    Read this part: > one or more unique identifiers that can help us recognize an individual user on an individual device and understand the device's service issues and use patterns. They have a file on each user, it is straight out of 1984.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

throwayEngineer 7y ago

No need to duel boot. Not sure if I'll need to use virtual machines as often for testing.

ISL 7y ago

The real advantage is that, if all of the applications are written for linux, one day, society may notice that the binary blob is vestigial/removable.

solotronics 7y ago
What if the next windows kernel was based on Linux/POSIX and it had VMs to run legacy windows programs?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  I'd probably just give up computing entirely and go live in a cave, that's what.
- devenblake 7y ago
  It's a theory and nothing more but I hope very much Windows 11 will be named W-11 and be just a really accessible Linux that looks and acts like Windows but will have the Linux kernel underneath the fluff. Maybe CMD.EXE could even be re-worked into a shell for compatibility with BATs, and Microsoft could work with Wine to make a perfect version that could work with any Windows binary. Far-fetched and barely plausible but a boy can dream.
- EvanAnderson 7y ago
  Why would MSFT throw away decades of development that have gone into the NT kernel? NT is an advanced and, to my eye, very elegant kernel. Win32 is much less so, but NT isn't Win32.
  - meruru 7y ago
    Because sunk costs and it may make sense to offload their kernel development efforts to focus on what makes them money.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Windows makes them plenty of money, billions of it.

freehunter 7y ago

To be fair, plenty of people care more about the "Linux" than they do about the "freedom" part. Case in point: macOS. Basically everything that makes it "macOS" is proprietary, but it gained popularity because it was mostly Linux-compatible. Unix compatibility is worth quite a bit on its own, Linux wouldn't have gotten half as far without it. And Unix is historically proprietary and closed-source.

AceJohnny2 7y ago
> And Unix is historically proprietary and closed-source "Unix" the brand name, maybe, but "Unix" the source code less so. BSD was based on Unix. The story of why Linux became popular instead of BSD is that BSD was mired in a copyright fight with AT&T over that relationship at the time. Per http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch02s01.html http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch02s01.html who was active at the time (and before he became today's wingnut) "It would take another two years and the great Internet explosion of 1993–1994 before the true importance of Linux and the open-source BSD distributions became evident to the rest of the Unix world. Unfortunately for the BSDers, an AT&T lawsuit against BSDI (the startup company that had backed the Jolitz port) consumed much of that time and motivated some key Berkeley developers to switch to Linux. > Code copying and theft of trade secrets was alleged. The actual infringing code was not identified for nearly two years. The lawsuit could have dragged on for much longer but for the fact that Novell bought USL from AT&T and sought a settlement. In the end, three files were removed from the 18,000 that made up the distribution, and a number of minor changes were made to other files. In addition, the University agreed to add USL copyrights to about 70 files, with the stipulation that those files continued to be freely redistributed. -- Marshall Kirk McKusick The settlement set an important precedent by freeing an entire working Unix from proprietary control, but its effects on BSD itself were dire. Matters were not helped when, in 1992–1994, the Computer Science Research Group at Berkeley shut down; afterwards, factional warfare within the BSD community split it into three competing development efforts. As a result, the BSD lineage lagged behind Linux at a crucial time and lost to it the lead position in the Unix community."
posix_me_less 7y ago
Macos is not "mostly Linux-compatible". It has unixy tools from GNU and other places, but it has little to do with Linux. Ecosystem, native development is different. Some tech is badlyemulated, e.g. Docker containers. If anything, use of Macos shows that people found a way to work with a shiny unixy desktop software without Linux and without software freedom.

ekianjo 7y ago

None of the freedom and plenty of tracking while you do just about anything on Windows.