5 ms·

This is probably an unpopular opinion but.. there is a lot of value in having multiple competing kernels. In the same vein as browser engines, any monoculture i

This is probably an unpopular opinion but.. there is a lot of value in having multiple competing kernels. In the same vein as browser engines, any monoculture is a bad idea. Not to mention there's been a lot of good work done on the NT kernel itself. Under the hood it's pretty advanced, even with all the user-space cruft on top.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
Sadly, much like with the web, things have evolved such that it is virtually impossible to create a competitor due to all the accumulated complexity. The driver problem on the PC platform is pretty much insurmountable at this point, so any competitor would have to begin life, and gain massively in popularity somehow, on a much less flexible hardware platform. It's a shame and makes me sad for modern computing.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  I wouldn't be so cynical. As with all things, tech comes and goes in cycles. I think with the limit to Moore's law rapidly approaching for current silicon, there's a good chance that efficiency & simplicity will become front and centre again at some point. Not sure if this will mean new architectures, operating systems & better tools.. but one can dream!
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    It is difficult to continue to hope for that while watching people cheer on additional layers of complexity like the garbage fire that is the modern web.
    - sjruckle 7y ago
      Yes, but if garbage never caught fire nobody would bother inventing better fire suppression techniques. Also, nobody ever saw a fireman by hiding inside with their window blinds shut. Take a peek outside, what you see might bring you hope.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      Try roasting marshmallows over it once in a while. See if that helps you feel better about it.
      - efreak 7y ago
        I did. I abused the history API on my website when it was new, and then they went and fixed it. As it turns out, sometimes people care more about the marshmallows than they do about the fire. I don't have the website anymore, but the basic idea is detailed here: https://grack.com/blog/2011/03/07/abusing-the-html5-history-api-for-fun-and-chaos https://grack.com/blog/2011/03/07/abusing-the-html5-history-...
        DoreenMichele 7y ago
        Less flippant answer: To some extant, I feel it is on me to try to access good things via the Internet, figure out how to interact with it reasonably safely and satisfyingly and not get overly bent out of shape about the inevitable problems. All things have their downsides. There are no perfect things that are nothing but goodness and light. As they say: Sunshine all the time makes a desert.
- mamcx 7y ago
  I have think the same but maybe TODAY is not as hard as before: 1- We have 4/5 mainstream OSes today: Win/OSX/iOS/Android + Linux. In the case of iOS/android: Some users alread switch between the 2. 2- If it have apps is almost all people need. Drivers are not THAT significant IMHO. 3- Chromebook is a thing, despite it sound stupid: A OS that is just a browser. Web is the 6 truly mainstream "OS". 4- What people need on drivers? USB (and with usb-c), hdmi, bluetooth (maybe?) + wifi. With this alone and you get even better than iPad: Monitors, wireless mouse, keyboards, external storage, and by extension you catch the rest. 5- Printers? By proxy of iOS it can work full wireless with no drivers on device. So I think a true desktop OS could launch with less worry about legacy hardware. Where IS the problem is the apps. It need to be better than chromebook, have very great first party apps that cover basics and hopefully, a VM layer so you could run linux and catch the rest.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    > What people need on drivers? USB (and with usb-c), hdmi, bluetooth (maybe?) Do you honestly think there is a single USB-C driver that covers literally everything that can connect over USB? And anything with an HDMI port uses the same driver!?
    - mamcx 7y ago
      No, but I suspect the array of devices is more narrow than suspected? I think that nail the software (app + dev experience) is a bigger challenge and priority than worry about the (external) hardware. P.D: One thin I forget to articulate is the possibility to leverage linux as a bridge for drivers (possible)? so the new OS ship a smallish linux just for get compatibility.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        Then you're just making a Linux distribution, or something like Android I suppose. You may as well say extending Chromium would solve the web monoculture issue. That isn't how it works. > I think that nail the software (app + dev experience) is a bigger challenge and priority than worry about the (external) hardware. You are ludicrously wrong. Using the Linux kernel as an example, because drivers are in-tree, as of 4.19 (late 2018): https://raw.githubusercontent.com/udoprog/kernelstats/master/gfx/kernelstats-millions.png https://raw.githubusercontent.com/udoprog/kernelstats/master... As you can see, drivers are the vast majority of the kernel. And Linux's hardware support is often called out as a reason people use Windows or MacOS!
meruru 7y ago
We don't need NT to have competing kernels. All of the following have their own kernels: + FreeBSD + OpenBSD + NetBSD + DragonFlyBSD + Minix + Haiku + Redox + Plan 9 + SeL4 + Fuchsia And many more.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Dozens and dozens of UNIX kernels (with Fuchsia being the exception I believe..? Not sure). Yes I know kernels have far outgrown POSIX, but it's still a form of monoculture. Diversity in all dimensions matters imo.
  - meruru 7y ago
    I'm not sure anything below Minix can be considered a UNIX kernel.
  - __s 7y ago
    Unix kernels could use more cohesion, not less, in terms of API. Even if that API is implemented mostly in userspace View the kernel API like HTML. Browser diversity is good, but they need to be implementing the same interface if the smaller players want to support any hardware that works with Linux
  - __d 7y ago
    Not to disagree with your point, but Plan9 is not really a Unix kernel, despite being written by some of the same group at Bell Labs.
  - CameronNemo 7y ago
    Less than half of those kernels are derived from UNIX. Do they replicate the same interfaces? Sure. But so does NT.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

Sadly, much like with the web, things have evolved such that it is virtually impossible to create a competitor due to all the accumulated complexity. The driver problem on the PC platform is pretty much insurmountable at this point, so any competitor would have to begin life, and gain massively in popularity somehow, on a much less flexible hardware platform. It's a shame and makes me sad for modern computing.

cameronbrown 7y ago
I wouldn't be so cynical. As with all things, tech comes and goes in cycles. I think with the limit to Moore's law rapidly approaching for current silicon, there's a good chance that efficiency & simplicity will become front and centre again at some point. Not sure if this will mean new architectures, operating systems & better tools.. but one can dream!
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  It is difficult to continue to hope for that while watching people cheer on additional layers of complexity like the garbage fire that is the modern web.
  - sjruckle 7y ago
    Yes, but if garbage never caught fire nobody would bother inventing better fire suppression techniques. Also, nobody ever saw a fireman by hiding inside with their window blinds shut. Take a peek outside, what you see might bring you hope.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Try roasting marshmallows over it once in a while. See if that helps you feel better about it.
    - efreak 7y ago
      I did. I abused the history API on my website when it was new, and then they went and fixed it. As it turns out, sometimes people care more about the marshmallows than they do about the fire. I don't have the website anymore, but the basic idea is detailed here: https://grack.com/blog/2011/03/07/abusing-the-html5-history-api-for-fun-and-chaos https://grack.com/blog/2011/03/07/abusing-the-html5-history-...
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        Less flippant answer: To some extant, I feel it is on me to try to access good things via the Internet, figure out how to interact with it reasonably safely and satisfyingly and not get overly bent out of shape about the inevitable problems. All things have their downsides. There are no perfect things that are nothing but goodness and light. As they say: Sunshine all the time makes a desert.
mamcx 7y ago
I have think the same but maybe TODAY is not as hard as before: 1- We have 4/5 mainstream OSes today: Win/OSX/iOS/Android + Linux. In the case of iOS/android: Some users alread switch between the 2. 2- If it have apps is almost all people need. Drivers are not THAT significant IMHO. 3- Chromebook is a thing, despite it sound stupid: A OS that is just a browser. Web is the 6 truly mainstream "OS". 4- What people need on drivers? USB (and with usb-c), hdmi, bluetooth (maybe?) + wifi. With this alone and you get even better than iPad: Monitors, wireless mouse, keyboards, external storage, and by extension you catch the rest. 5- Printers? By proxy of iOS it can work full wireless with no drivers on device. So I think a true desktop OS could launch with less worry about legacy hardware. Where IS the problem is the apps. It need to be better than chromebook, have very great first party apps that cover basics and hopefully, a VM layer so you could run linux and catch the rest.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  > What people need on drivers? USB (and with usb-c), hdmi, bluetooth (maybe?) Do you honestly think there is a single USB-C driver that covers literally everything that can connect over USB? And anything with an HDMI port uses the same driver!?
  - mamcx 7y ago
    No, but I suspect the array of devices is more narrow than suspected? I think that nail the software (app + dev experience) is a bigger challenge and priority than worry about the (external) hardware. P.D: One thin I forget to articulate is the possibility to leverage linux as a bridge for drivers (possible)? so the new OS ship a smallish linux just for get compatibility.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      Then you're just making a Linux distribution, or something like Android I suppose. You may as well say extending Chromium would solve the web monoculture issue. That isn't how it works. > I think that nail the software (app + dev experience) is a bigger challenge and priority than worry about the (external) hardware. You are ludicrously wrong. Using the Linux kernel as an example, because drivers are in-tree, as of 4.19 (late 2018): https://raw.githubusercontent.com/udoprog/kernelstats/master/gfx/kernelstats-millions.png https://raw.githubusercontent.com/udoprog/kernelstats/master... As you can see, drivers are the vast majority of the kernel. And Linux's hardware support is often called out as a reason people use Windows or MacOS!

meruru 7y ago

We don't need NT to have competing kernels. All of the following have their own kernels: + FreeBSD + OpenBSD + NetBSD + DragonFlyBSD + Minix + Haiku + Redox + Plan 9 + SeL4 + Fuchsia And many more.

cameronbrown 7y ago
Dozens and dozens of UNIX kernels (with Fuchsia being the exception I believe..? Not sure). Yes I know kernels have far outgrown POSIX, but it's still a form of monoculture. Diversity in all dimensions matters imo.
- meruru 7y ago
  I'm not sure anything below Minix can be considered a UNIX kernel.
- __s 7y ago
  Unix kernels could use more cohesion, not less, in terms of API. Even if that API is implemented mostly in userspace View the kernel API like HTML. Browser diversity is good, but they need to be implementing the same interface if the smaller players want to support any hardware that works with Linux
- __d 7y ago
  Not to disagree with your point, but Plan9 is not really a Unix kernel, despite being written by some of the same group at Bell Labs.
- CameronNemo 7y ago
  Less than half of those kernels are derived from UNIX. Do they replicate the same interfaces? Sure. But so does NT.