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>The US has a trade deficit with almost all of its trading partners. That is a structural issue. But has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. It

>The US has a trade deficit with almost all of its trading partners. That is a structural issue. But has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. It's not a crude caricature. IP protection in china is non existing which anyone who even done a little business in china knows very well. It's litterally one of the biggest criticisms so I am not sure where you are getting your information from, none the less it's incorrect. Chinese don't need their brands to western markets they just need to produce for our markets. The difference is that the west doesn't hinder chinese companies to compete on our markets, china does hinder us competing on theirs.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
> IP protection in china is non existing which anyone who even done a little business in china knows very well. Rather than going back and forth with "Yes it is," "No it isn't," I'll provide some hard facts here. China has been ramping up IP enforcement over the past five years or so. In 2014, China began establishing specialized IP courts in major cities, and over time, more and more have been created. These courts have been hearing a rapidly expanding number of cases. The number of IP disputes heard in Chinese courts has increased by 30-40% every year for the past few years. Last year, Chinese courts heard nearly 300,000 IP disputes. 10% of patent cases in China are brought by foreign companies, and they win 70% of cases. There have been problems with the Chinese court system when it comes to IP. The penalties for IP infringement have historically been low, but they have been increasing. Evidence discovery has been difficult, but new procedures have been introduced to enable it. Foreign companies have felt that local companies are favored, but the central government has been pushing for stronger enforcement of foreign companies' rights, and the statistics show that foreign companies are now as successful as Chinese companies in their cases. In light of all this, I think it's fair to say that the picture you're painting is crude. China is actually becoming one of the most active venues for IP litigation in the world, going just by the sheer volume of cases they handle now. 1. https://www.limegreenipnews.com/2018/09/china-ip-litigation-and-prosecution-statistics-taking-a-step-back-to-see-the-bigger-picture/ https://www.limegreenipnews.com/2018/09/china-ip-litigation-... 2. https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/chinas-progress-on-intellectual-property-rights-yes-really/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/chinas-progress-on-intellect... 3. https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2018/05/07/rapid-changes-chinese-legal-system-attractive-venue-ip-litigation/id=96099/ https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2018/05/07/rapid-changes-chinese-... 4. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3001407/jump-number-intellectual-property-cases-handled-chinas-courts https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3001407/jum...
- ThomPete 7y ago
  Those are not hard facts. Progress isn't the same as a satisfactory situation. Anyone who has tried working in China knows exactly what the problem is. If not for Trump we wouldn't even be having this discussion and China would now have more or less complete domination on large parts of western infrastructure. I have no idea what make you think that you are making any kind of argument here. It's a known fact even by the EU that china is not giving us access to their markets and har not actually securing IP and are in fact forcing it onto chinese hands. That's not something I am just making up it's at the heart of the conflict.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    > Those are not hard facts. What isn't a fact? Everything I wrote about the development of Chinese IP enforcement is detailed in the sources I listed at the end. > It's a known fact even by the EU that china is not giving us access to their markets That's not a known fact. American and European businesses not only have access to the Chinese market, but also have very significant presence there. China is the biggest market for Boeing and Airbus. It's the biggest market for General Motors and Volkswagen (and VW is the largest car brand in China), and the second largest market for Ford. I could go on and on like this. China is obviously still strongly export-dependent, but its consumer economy is growing quickly and foreign companies have a huge presence in that sector. > and har not actually securing IP and are in fact forcing it onto chinese hands. In my last comment, I cited to you the figures on the rapid growth in the number of IP disputes heard by Chinese courts. I told you about how specialized IP courts have been set up in major Chinese cities over the past five years, about how penalties for IP violations have been significantly increased, about how evidence discovery has been made easier, and about how effective foreign companies are in winning patent disputes in China (a 70% win rate). Those are facts. I find that people outside China often have an image of the country that lags 10-20 years behind reality. The image you're painting would have been more accurate in 2009. In 2019, it's woefully out of date.
    - ThomPete 7y ago
      That you take something from an extremely poor place and make it better is not the same has having lifted it to anything close to a satsifactory level. China has no excuse for not enforcing IP rights and no excuse for their forced technology transfer. There is no defacto improvement in China thats the reality you apparently refuse to understand. You keep missing the point of this discussion and thus the point of the conflict with China.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

> IP protection in china is non existing which anyone who even done a little business in china knows very well. Rather than going back and forth with "Yes it is," "No it isn't," I'll provide some hard facts here. China has been ramping up IP enforcement over the past five years or so. In 2014, China began establishing specialized IP courts in major cities, and over time, more and more have been created. These courts have been hearing a rapidly expanding number of cases. The number of IP disputes heard in Chinese courts has increased by 30-40% every year for the past few years. Last year, Chinese courts heard nearly 300,000 IP disputes. 10% of patent cases in China are brought by foreign companies, and they win 70% of cases. There have been problems with the Chinese court system when it comes to IP. The penalties for IP infringement have historically been low, but they have been increasing. Evidence discovery has been difficult, but new procedures have been introduced to enable it. Foreign companies have felt that local companies are favored, but the central government has been pushing for stronger enforcement of foreign companies' rights, and the statistics show that foreign companies are now as successful as Chinese companies in their cases. In light of all this, I think it's fair to say that the picture you're painting is crude. China is actually becoming one of the most active venues for IP litigation in the world, going just by the sheer volume of cases they handle now. 1. https://www.limegreenipnews.com/2018/09/china-ip-litigation-and-prosecution-statistics-taking-a-step-back-to-see-the-bigger-picture/ https://www.limegreenipnews.com/2018/09/china-ip-litigation-... 2. https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/chinas-progress-on-intellectual-property-rights-yes-really/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/chinas-progress-on-intellect... 3. https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2018/05/07/rapid-changes-chinese-legal-system-attractive-venue-ip-litigation/id=96099/ https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2018/05/07/rapid-changes-chinese-... 4. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3001407/jump-number-intellectual-property-cases-handled-chinas-courts https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3001407/jum...

ThomPete 7y ago
Those are not hard facts. Progress isn't the same as a satisfactory situation. Anyone who has tried working in China knows exactly what the problem is. If not for Trump we wouldn't even be having this discussion and China would now have more or less complete domination on large parts of western infrastructure. I have no idea what make you think that you are making any kind of argument here. It's a known fact even by the EU that china is not giving us access to their markets and har not actually securing IP and are in fact forcing it onto chinese hands. That's not something I am just making up it's at the heart of the conflict.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  > Those are not hard facts. What isn't a fact? Everything I wrote about the development of Chinese IP enforcement is detailed in the sources I listed at the end. > It's a known fact even by the EU that china is not giving us access to their markets That's not a known fact. American and European businesses not only have access to the Chinese market, but also have very significant presence there. China is the biggest market for Boeing and Airbus. It's the biggest market for General Motors and Volkswagen (and VW is the largest car brand in China), and the second largest market for Ford. I could go on and on like this. China is obviously still strongly export-dependent, but its consumer economy is growing quickly and foreign companies have a huge presence in that sector. > and har not actually securing IP and are in fact forcing it onto chinese hands. In my last comment, I cited to you the figures on the rapid growth in the number of IP disputes heard by Chinese courts. I told you about how specialized IP courts have been set up in major Chinese cities over the past five years, about how penalties for IP violations have been significantly increased, about how evidence discovery has been made easier, and about how effective foreign companies are in winning patent disputes in China (a 70% win rate). Those are facts. I find that people outside China often have an image of the country that lags 10-20 years behind reality. The image you're painting would have been more accurate in 2009. In 2019, it's woefully out of date.
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    That you take something from an extremely poor place and make it better is not the same has having lifted it to anything close to a satsifactory level. China has no excuse for not enforcing IP rights and no excuse for their forced technology transfer. There is no defacto improvement in China thats the reality you apparently refuse to understand. You keep missing the point of this discussion and thus the point of the conflict with China.