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"USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they mention it, they will put phrase it like "America liberat

"USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they mention it, they will put phrase it like "America liberated the population of Irak " This is complete rubbish. The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level, where China is. Second - geopolitical issues have nothing to do with theft of IP, and usually not even resources (at least not in Central America). 'Central American countries' or 'Iraq' definitely have nothing to offer the US or anyone else in terms of the kind of IP theft one might be concerned about in China. America did not 'steal' anything from Iraq - their Oil is their own, they receive 100% of the revenue, not only that, they are free to partner with any company they use, in fact, they ended up going with entities like Total (France), Statoil (Russia) etc. instead of US companies. (I guess as a 'thanks' for the fact they are now free to do as they please, and the Oil belongs to the people of Iraq instead of Saddam Co.) "China is bad" because they steal IP, there is no rule of law, there is widespread corruption, pollution, there is total control of the people by the state and people dissapear of the street for no reason. Literally, as we speak, China is incarcerating 100's of thousands, possibly millions of people due to their ethnicity or religion, and harvesting their organs as they are killed on trumped up charges. [1] When we use the term 'Nazi' or 'concentration camps', usually it's hyperbole - but it's not: we now have a major power rounding up people by the millions due to ethnicity and culling their organs. This is actualy Nazi level stuff. The level of moral relativism implied here is repulsive. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/i...

koonsolo 7y ago
> The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level, where China is. Seriously? You are kidding right? You must be kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial... The most poplular examples are probably German Enercon and Dutch Airbus, but our own Belgian Lernout & Hauspie was also targeted by something you are in complete denial of. It's Europe here, we're supposed to be allies, no? So why is your government literally stealing business using industrial espionage? That's like sleeping with your best friends wife. So yeah, get your facts straight please. "No I didn't sleep with your wife, I would never do such a thing! But THAT guy, THAT guy does it!"
- wuliwong 7y ago
  I have no clue what level of industrial espionage takes place in the US or China but the fact that it _has_ occurred in both places does not speak to the frequency and severity that these types of actions are taken. All your examples could be true and still the Chinese govt. could be orders of magnitude worse. To me all of this is nearly irrelevant to OP's original point which was taking an American company's manufacturing to China is a risk. I don't think OP was implicitly making the claim that moving a Chinese company's manufacturing to the US is less of a risk. That seems to be the tangent that the comment thread has taken but it was not part of the original comment. I think there is more of a risk that the Chinese government will steal the IP from Apple in China than the US government will steal the IP from Apple in the US.
  - koonsolo 7y ago
    I was reacting to this statement: "The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level", which is obviously false. I wanted to rectify that.
powerapple 7y ago
Nazi level stuff？ really? 100 of thousands, that’s close to how many people died in Iraq now. Why don’t we just start World War III is you all think it is really Nazi stuff.
throwmex 7y ago
> The oil belongs to the people of Iraq. So they will soon be rich like the Saudis in the near future ? You are kidding right ? This is what your medias are telling you ? Do you know what lead to the refugee crisis and other IS* organizations in the middle east ? The Banana Republics in South America ? Why is Saudi a saint while other nations in middle east are bad actors ? The rhetoric on China sounds like sour grapes to me.
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  >>> "You are kidding right ? " No, I'm not kidding. The oil in Iraq is 100% under their control. America derives no wealth from Iraqi Oil. If you want to learn something about it, read up [1] Of course, some of it is independently controlled by Kurds, and some of it in hostile areas, but it has nothing to do with America. Will they be rich like Saudis? No, because there isn't quite enough of it, it's in 'hot zones', they still have geopolitical instability making the system totally inefficient. But again: it's Iraqi oil - not something 'stolen by America'. Most of the Oil in Iraq is extracted by foreign companies, as I mentioned, a lot of it is extracted by local irregular entities - and the beneficiaries on the other side of the equation, i.e. the 'buyers' of the Oil is >>> "Why is Saudi a saint" Who said Saudi Arabia was a saint? Basically - nobody is saying that. Saudi Arabia makes headlines daily for their abuses. The US/UK/Canadian (and others) are under a lot of pressure as we speak to limit military sales. What separates 'China' from 'Saudi Arabia' is the fact that one represents an existential concern, outside their borders, one does not. China wants to rule that side of the world. The 'House of Saud' is content to have it's little fiefdom. Of course, the Wahabbis are exporting an ideology, and money flows from Saudi into some not-so-good things, but that's not the House of Saud. Osama Bin Laden's primary objective was to overthrow the Saudi gov. - the 'destroy America' thing comes much later. The Saudi Arabian government a) actively works with other powers to track down terrorists b) has a de-facto kind of peace with Israel c) ensures that their Oil flows freely into global markets d) is not trying to overthrow Iran e) is not trying to steal industry and IP f) is not trying to build an army/navy to cause a lot of trouble far beyond their borders. (And Yemen FYI is on their border, it's a spillover problem) Saudi Arabia is a 'decent state actor' with a lot of internal social problems we don't like. China has become a hostile economic entity, and is becoming more so a military adversary with concerns about it's borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq
dang 7y ago
We'e asked you repeatedly to stop using HN for political and ideological flamewar. Instead, you've done more and more of it. That's a serious abuse of this site, because such flamewars actually destroy this place for thoughtful and curious conversation, its raison d'etre. Since you've ignored our attempts to get you to use HN as intended, I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. But please don't create accounts to break the site guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  That's fine, and it's your prerogative, surely. However you must notice there is arbitrary antagonism throughout the thread to which I am responding, not intending to 'inflame' however much that may have been the case and I'm sorry for that.

koonsolo 7y ago

> The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level, where China is. Seriously? You are kidding right? You must be kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial... The most poplular examples are probably German Enercon and Dutch Airbus, but our own Belgian Lernout & Hauspie was also targeted by something you are in complete denial of. It's Europe here, we're supposed to be allies, no? So why is your government literally stealing business using industrial espionage? That's like sleeping with your best friends wife. So yeah, get your facts straight please. "No I didn't sleep with your wife, I would never do such a thing! But THAT guy, THAT guy does it!"

wuliwong 7y ago
I have no clue what level of industrial espionage takes place in the US or China but the fact that it _has_ occurred in both places does not speak to the frequency and severity that these types of actions are taken. All your examples could be true and still the Chinese govt. could be orders of magnitude worse. To me all of this is nearly irrelevant to OP's original point which was taking an American company's manufacturing to China is a risk. I don't think OP was implicitly making the claim that moving a Chinese company's manufacturing to the US is less of a risk. That seems to be the tangent that the comment thread has taken but it was not part of the original comment. I think there is more of a risk that the Chinese government will steal the IP from Apple in China than the US government will steal the IP from Apple in the US.
- koonsolo 7y ago
  I was reacting to this statement: "The US is not in the business of industrial espionage for commercial purposes - either on a corporate or governmental level", which is obviously false. I wanted to rectify that.

powerapple 7y ago

Nazi level stuff？ really? 100 of thousands, that’s close to how many people died in Iraq now. Why don’t we just start World War III is you all think it is really Nazi stuff.

throwmex 7y ago

> The oil belongs to the people of Iraq. So they will soon be rich like the Saudis in the near future ? You are kidding right ? This is what your medias are telling you ? Do you know what lead to the refugee crisis and other IS* organizations in the middle east ? The Banana Republics in South America ? Why is Saudi a saint while other nations in middle east are bad actors ? The rhetoric on China sounds like sour grapes to me.

sonnyblarney 7y ago
>>> "You are kidding right ? " No, I'm not kidding. The oil in Iraq is 100% under their control. America derives no wealth from Iraqi Oil. If you want to learn something about it, read up [1] Of course, some of it is independently controlled by Kurds, and some of it in hostile areas, but it has nothing to do with America. Will they be rich like Saudis? No, because there isn't quite enough of it, it's in 'hot zones', they still have geopolitical instability making the system totally inefficient. But again: it's Iraqi oil - not something 'stolen by America'. Most of the Oil in Iraq is extracted by foreign companies, as I mentioned, a lot of it is extracted by local irregular entities - and the beneficiaries on the other side of the equation, i.e. the 'buyers' of the Oil is >>> "Why is Saudi a saint" Who said Saudi Arabia was a saint? Basically - nobody is saying that. Saudi Arabia makes headlines daily for their abuses. The US/UK/Canadian (and others) are under a lot of pressure as we speak to limit military sales. What separates 'China' from 'Saudi Arabia' is the fact that one represents an existential concern, outside their borders, one does not. China wants to rule that side of the world. The 'House of Saud' is content to have it's little fiefdom. Of course, the Wahabbis are exporting an ideology, and money flows from Saudi into some not-so-good things, but that's not the House of Saud. Osama Bin Laden's primary objective was to overthrow the Saudi gov. - the 'destroy America' thing comes much later. The Saudi Arabian government a) actively works with other powers to track down terrorists b) has a de-facto kind of peace with Israel c) ensures that their Oil flows freely into global markets d) is not trying to overthrow Iran e) is not trying to steal industry and IP f) is not trying to build an army/navy to cause a lot of trouble far beyond their borders. (And Yemen FYI is on their border, it's a spillover problem) Saudi Arabia is a 'decent state actor' with a lot of internal social problems we don't like. China has become a hostile economic entity, and is becoming more so a military adversary with concerns about it's borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Iraq

dang 7y ago

We'e asked you repeatedly to stop using HN for political and ideological flamewar. Instead, you've done more and more of it. That's a serious abuse of this site, because such flamewars actually destroy this place for thoughtful and curious conversation, its raison d'etre. Since you've ignored our attempts to get you to use HN as intended, I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. But please don't create accounts to break the site guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

sonnyblarney 7y ago
That's fine, and it's your prerogative, surely. However you must notice there is arbitrary antagonism throughout the thread to which I am responding, not intending to 'inflame' however much that may have been the case and I'm sorry for that.