7 ms·

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is gro

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. America's approach to China is that of an overconfident fiancee who thinks once they're married they will change their partners ways. It rarely works out.

granshaw 7y ago
There is next to none long term thinking by the American govt or corporations, period. That’s expected from publicly traded companies, and when those companies run the country too, well...
chrisjc 7y ago
I hate to dilute the conversation and the point you're trying to make, but I've had absolutely no luck grasping what this 'woke' meme is. Something about liberals finally understanding what conservatives have been saying all along?
- Fezzik 7y ago
  I would define it simply as a buzz word that silly people use to try to express a unique awareness and deeper understanding that no-one else can have of more liberal issues (racial, LBGTQ, social condition, etc...)
  - homonculus1 7y ago
    It should be noted that it seems to have had a remarkably short lifespan between hitting the mainstream and being widely used to mock the people who use it unironically. For context to this observation, my bias is that I think its straightforward meaning is mainly for confrontational moral grandstanders to signal their blue-tribe affiliation.
- bwb 7y ago
  This isn't about politics, it is about how the world economy is going to work and to what degree countries specialize versus protect certain industries IMO :) Post WW2 there was a big movement to integrate world economies under the belief that countries don't go to war against their economic partners. I must admit I am a huge believer in this. Now, under the leadership of the 80s and 90s, on both sides of the aisle this went too far and the USA probably needed to add some protection to its domestic labor market. IMO the EU navigated that better, but culturally they have always been less merc. Anyway, this is where we are at, we now have people in power questioning that.... My worry is that that we will untangle this fantastic system, rather than tangle but in a smarter way and provide better domestic protections.
- ASalazarMX 7y ago
  Not parent, but I always assumed it was a synonym of "enlightened". It turns out that's because its intended meaning has been diluted by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
- 40acres 7y ago
  Woke is shorthand for awoken, or awakening. It's generally used to signify an agreement (or at least understanding) of left leaning perspectives on civil rights. Personally, despite my beliefs, I am not comfortable with corporations co-opting movements like LGBTQ pride on one hand (how many rainbow branded beer bottles have you seen this month?) and advocating policies that are diametrically opposed with the other.
  - magduf 7y ago
    >Personally, despite my beliefs, I am not comfortable with corporations co-opting movements like LGBTQ pride on one hand (how many rainbow branded beer bottles have you seen this month?) and advocating policies that are diametrically opposed with the other. Yeah, this reminds me of when I went to the DC Pride parade last year and saw a bunch of floats and participants from various corporations: banks, airlines, etc. I'm all for accepting LGBT people, but the corporate-ness of the festivities really disturbed me. What's next, a Million Man march sponsored by Nike, or a women's march sponsored by Johnson&Johnson? I don't remember MLK needing corporate sponsorship when he did his marches.
magduf 7y ago
>but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. How is that worse than doing business in a nation that has imprisoned thousands of impoverished migrants in concentration camps and has forcibly separated children from their families, to the point where many of them have never been reunited? At least in China, the facilities for large-scale manufacturing all exist there. You need some tiny screws to build your laptop? No problem, there's a company in the same city that makes them by the millions; in America, you have to contract with some machine shop to make them for a fortune and you can't get the quantity you need for large-scale manufacturing.[1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-...
- peterhadlaw 7y ago
  Do words not mean anything anymore? Nazi (now obsolete), Racist (now obsolete), Concentration Camp!? You're really going to compare a crime against humanity - a system designed to EXTERMINATE over 6 million people to an unfortunate situation at the border (which has resulted in, what, 7 [very sad, potentially preventable] deaths?). Do you want a ticket to Auschwitz to see what an actual concentration camp looks like? That can be my gift to you if you'd stop diluting our language and erasing our history for the sake of 6+ million people.
  - empath75 7y ago
    They were concentration camps before they were extermination camps. You’re the one shifting language.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    Racist is a now-obsolete term? Um okay...
  - sgift 7y ago
    I invite you to Dachau if you want a tour there. Dachau never was a formal extermination camp, but it was the concentration camp after which all other concentration camps were modeled and then modified. Maybe after a tour there you learn to be quiet about things you don't understand.
riq_ 7y ago
> Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. First of all: You are not wrong. But similar things can be said about USA. USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they mention it, they will put phrase it like "America liberated the population of Irak (insert any country here) from the dictarship". But the press on other countries could say different things about the USA: "Not only is USA has a long history of creating coup-d'etat in foreign countries (e.g: South America), and installing governments that favor their policy and killing thousands of innocent people to achieve that. But also is known to create false evidence to invade countries to steal their oil and killing thousands of innocent people, again. And recently it has been proved that the USA spied on their allies to..." I don't want to put in a way that the USA is "bad" or China "good", or vice-versa. But the important thing here is: critical thinking. Don't buy what the press tells you. Is China "bad" ? Who is telling you that China is "bad" ? Does the person that is telling you that China is "bad" gain something from it? Is that person any better than China? Companies are driven to make money. Otherwise they would be an NGO, and not a company.
- 40acres 7y ago
  To be clear, I am many times more critical of my own government and the history of this nation than I ever can be of a foreign nation. My user name is specifically a reference to civil war era promises to freed slaves that were broken and the legacy of reconstruction. That being said, just because my government does it doesn't mean that I can't call a spade a spade when I see it. What the Chinese government is doing in Xianjiang should be one of the highest international issues right now, unfortunately due to corporate interests China is receiving minimal pressure on the issue.
  - drivingmenuts 7y ago
    Sure, you can call out their malfeasance, treachery, outright shenanigans, whatever, but is it appropriate to get upset about it when your own side is just as treacherous? I’m starting to reach the point where, short of outright killing people, I just don’t care because my country of residence is just as bad as the “bad” guys. Worse, nothing will really ever change that.
forkLding 7y ago
If USA is having a good relationship with Saudi Arabia which is not even really giving women rights and only recently allowed women to drive then you know USA don't care.
throwawayMUSE 7y ago
I work for one of the large companies whose product or services you probably use every day, maybe even multiple times a day. One of the top people in my company has stated concretely to his leadership team that he doesn’t “give a fuck” about existing employees’ mental health or burning out. As long as we keep recruiting and maintain butts in seats, it doesn’t matter. This person is responsible for a massive chunk of this company. He’s not some isolated irrelevant person. For someone who doesn’t care about his own employees, I seriously doubt they care about China’s human rights record. It’s not that they think China is a bad spouse who will change their ways - IMO at least given my company, that analogy is wrong. They just don’t care.
- allthecybers 7y ago
  Today's major publicly traded companies have one allegiance and that is creating shareholder value aka profit. So if the company doesn't give an eff about employees in the US, why would they care about supplier ethics or the treatment of workers in China.
- hurrdurr2 7y ago
  My current company is the same way. They will pay lip service via HR that they care about their people but in reality, the management decisions show they do not care at all. All that matters is delivering value to the board and shareholders.
ASalazarMX 7y ago
It's unavoidable that USA loses its hegemony. It might be market, military or natural forces, but the balance of power always changes. China's star is rising for now, tomorrow it will be someone else's. Moral merit has nothing to do with this.
hugi 7y ago
I'm constantly amazed by how Americans think they're so awesome that they think they can criticize China politically.
- throwmex 7y ago
  Don't you dare say that the emperor is nude. You will be shown the guillotine.
  - dang 7y ago
    Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News along the way.
- dzader 7y ago
  we are.
- evv 7y ago
  Don't be amazed. It is part of American culture to criticize international and domestic policies that we disagree with. The Trump administration may be an embarrassment to the American people, but we are still free to call out injustices that we see. Anyone with a bit of bravery can be awesome enough to criticize China's authoritarian regime. Just don't do it while you're there.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  While civil rights deriving from the principle of awesomeness sounds like a totally rad way to run a society, in truth that is not the premise of America's First Amendment.
- dang 7y ago
  Please stop using HN for nationalistic battle. It doesn't matter which country you do or don't like—it leads to degenerate discussion and we don't want that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20277723 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20277723 was especially bad. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tchaffee 7y ago
> I believe we are mortgaging our future. Who is "we"? I thought the Hacker News community was international? > with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps Right now the US has children, separated from their parents at the border, caged up in chain link fences like animals. I agree the US does win over China when it comes to human rights overall, but I don't think Americans are in a good position to be talking about human rights abuses at this exact point in history. I am not personally attacking you. You made some reasonable points. I am suggesting that if you view the US from afar, like you are viewing China from afar, there might be some useful information there.
deehouie 7y ago
If you believe USA has better human rights record, think again. Just read about how this country treats its black citizens. Let me mention the Vietnam war, for which most HN readers are probably familiar with. I was in the War Remnants Museum in Saigon and here is what I saw. In one photo, taken by US journalist, a Viet Cong was being held on the ground by American GIs, a rag is placed over the man's face and water is poured over it, making breathing impossible. That's called water torture. And that was 1968.
- free652 7y ago
  Let me mention that th current Chinese regime is comparable to a regime of an European country in 1943. If we're talking about what happened 50 years ago, we can talk what happened 75 years ago as well.
- throwaway66666 7y ago
  Also... the USA is the only country that has used nuclear weapons against another country. And they dared do it twice! We think of them as barbarians. They think of us as barbarians. And the cycle of finger pointing goes on. Such a dangerous mindset to have.
- lenkite 7y ago
  So because a few individuals did something against the code of fighting conduct in 1968, a nation can run mass-incarceration camps and carry out forced organ harvesting for millions in 2019 ?
e40 7y ago
It's clear that globalization has some nasty side effects. Yes, there were people sounding these alarms back in the 90's. Did we heed them? No. I thought it was a little shrill. Now? I'm convinced that globalization has done some powerful good in the world, but it has also done some serious damage. The entire tilt to the right is the reaction to globalization. The Daily podcast (NYT) had a week-long series going to various EU countries and talking with people on the ground. It was eye opening, to say the least. I highly recommend it.
dang 7y ago
Although it's at least not an inflammatory swipe, this comment falls on the side of generic political and nationalistic battle. Please don't take HN threads on such tangents. Once internet comments degenerate to arguing the merits and demerits of entire countries, we're certain to have repetitive, predictable, and eventually nasty discussion. On HN we're trying to avoid all that. The subthread below is an example, and such things get worse as they get larger. Here are two heuristics to keep in mind: if it's generic, it's likely to be predictable; if it's predictable, it's uninteresting. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

granshaw 7y ago

There is next to none long term thinking by the American govt or corporations, period. That’s expected from publicly traded companies, and when those companies run the country too, well...

chrisjc 7y ago

I hate to dilute the conversation and the point you're trying to make, but I've had absolutely no luck grasping what this 'woke' meme is. Something about liberals finally understanding what conservatives have been saying all along?

Fezzik 7y ago
I would define it simply as a buzz word that silly people use to try to express a unique awareness and deeper understanding that no-one else can have of more liberal issues (racial, LBGTQ, social condition, etc...)
- homonculus1 7y ago
  It should be noted that it seems to have had a remarkably short lifespan between hitting the mainstream and being widely used to mock the people who use it unironically. For context to this observation, my bias is that I think its straightforward meaning is mainly for confrontational moral grandstanders to signal their blue-tribe affiliation.
bwb 7y ago
This isn't about politics, it is about how the world economy is going to work and to what degree countries specialize versus protect certain industries IMO :) Post WW2 there was a big movement to integrate world economies under the belief that countries don't go to war against their economic partners. I must admit I am a huge believer in this. Now, under the leadership of the 80s and 90s, on both sides of the aisle this went too far and the USA probably needed to add some protection to its domestic labor market. IMO the EU navigated that better, but culturally they have always been less merc. Anyway, this is where we are at, we now have people in power questioning that.... My worry is that that we will untangle this fantastic system, rather than tangle but in a smarter way and provide better domestic protections.
ASalazarMX 7y ago
Not parent, but I always assumed it was a synonym of "enlightened". It turns out that's because its intended meaning has been diluted by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
40acres 7y ago
Woke is shorthand for awoken, or awakening. It's generally used to signify an agreement (or at least understanding) of left leaning perspectives on civil rights. Personally, despite my beliefs, I am not comfortable with corporations co-opting movements like LGBTQ pride on one hand (how many rainbow branded beer bottles have you seen this month?) and advocating policies that are diametrically opposed with the other.
- magduf 7y ago
  >Personally, despite my beliefs, I am not comfortable with corporations co-opting movements like LGBTQ pride on one hand (how many rainbow branded beer bottles have you seen this month?) and advocating policies that are diametrically opposed with the other. Yeah, this reminds me of when I went to the DC Pride parade last year and saw a bunch of floats and participants from various corporations: banks, airlines, etc. I'm all for accepting LGBT people, but the corporate-ness of the festivities really disturbed me. What's next, a Million Man march sponsored by Nike, or a women's march sponsored by Johnson&Johnson? I don't remember MLK needing corporate sponsorship when he did his marches.

magduf 7y ago

>but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. How is that worse than doing business in a nation that has imprisoned thousands of impoverished migrants in concentration camps and has forcibly separated children from their families, to the point where many of them have never been reunited? At least in China, the facilities for large-scale manufacturing all exist there. You need some tiny screws to build your laptop? No problem, there's a company in the same city that makes them by the millions; in America, you have to contract with some machine shop to make them for a fortune and you can't get the quantity you need for large-scale manufacturing.[1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-...

peterhadlaw 7y ago
Do words not mean anything anymore? Nazi (now obsolete), Racist (now obsolete), Concentration Camp!? You're really going to compare a crime against humanity - a system designed to EXTERMINATE over 6 million people to an unfortunate situation at the border (which has resulted in, what, 7 [very sad, potentially preventable] deaths?). Do you want a ticket to Auschwitz to see what an actual concentration camp looks like? That can be my gift to you if you'd stop diluting our language and erasing our history for the sake of 6+ million people.
- empath75 7y ago
  They were concentration camps before they were extermination camps. You’re the one shifting language.
- freehunter 7y ago
  Racist is a now-obsolete term? Um okay...
- sgift 7y ago
  I invite you to Dachau if you want a tour there. Dachau never was a formal extermination camp, but it was the concentration camp after which all other concentration camps were modeled and then modified. Maybe after a tour there you learn to be quiet about things you don't understand.

riq_ 7y ago

> Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. First of all: You are not wrong. But similar things can be said about USA. USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they mention it, they will put phrase it like "America liberated the population of Irak (insert any country here) from the dictarship". But the press on other countries could say different things about the USA: "Not only is USA has a long history of creating coup-d'etat in foreign countries (e.g: South America), and installing governments that favor their policy and killing thousands of innocent people to achieve that. But also is known to create false evidence to invade countries to steal their oil and killing thousands of innocent people, again. And recently it has been proved that the USA spied on their allies to..." I don't want to put in a way that the USA is "bad" or China "good", or vice-versa. But the important thing here is: critical thinking. Don't buy what the press tells you. Is China "bad" ? Who is telling you that China is "bad" ? Does the person that is telling you that China is "bad" gain something from it? Is that person any better than China? Companies are driven to make money. Otherwise they would be an NGO, and not a company.

40acres 7y ago
To be clear, I am many times more critical of my own government and the history of this nation than I ever can be of a foreign nation. My user name is specifically a reference to civil war era promises to freed slaves that were broken and the legacy of reconstruction. That being said, just because my government does it doesn't mean that I can't call a spade a spade when I see it. What the Chinese government is doing in Xianjiang should be one of the highest international issues right now, unfortunately due to corporate interests China is receiving minimal pressure on the issue.
- drivingmenuts 7y ago
  Sure, you can call out their malfeasance, treachery, outright shenanigans, whatever, but is it appropriate to get upset about it when your own side is just as treacherous? I’m starting to reach the point where, short of outright killing people, I just don’t care because my country of residence is just as bad as the “bad” guys. Worse, nothing will really ever change that.

forkLding 7y ago

If USA is having a good relationship with Saudi Arabia which is not even really giving women rights and only recently allowed women to drive then you know USA don't care.

throwawayMUSE 7y ago

I work for one of the large companies whose product or services you probably use every day, maybe even multiple times a day. One of the top people in my company has stated concretely to his leadership team that he doesn’t “give a fuck” about existing employees’ mental health or burning out. As long as we keep recruiting and maintain butts in seats, it doesn’t matter. This person is responsible for a massive chunk of this company. He’s not some isolated irrelevant person. For someone who doesn’t care about his own employees, I seriously doubt they care about China’s human rights record. It’s not that they think China is a bad spouse who will change their ways - IMO at least given my company, that analogy is wrong. They just don’t care.

allthecybers 7y ago
Today's major publicly traded companies have one allegiance and that is creating shareholder value aka profit. So if the company doesn't give an eff about employees in the US, why would they care about supplier ethics or the treatment of workers in China.
hurrdurr2 7y ago
My current company is the same way. They will pay lip service via HR that they care about their people but in reality, the management decisions show they do not care at all. All that matters is delivering value to the board and shareholders.

ASalazarMX 7y ago

It's unavoidable that USA loses its hegemony. It might be market, military or natural forces, but the balance of power always changes. China's star is rising for now, tomorrow it will be someone else's. Moral merit has nothing to do with this.

hugi 7y ago

I'm constantly amazed by how Americans think they're so awesome that they think they can criticize China politically.

throwmex 7y ago
Don't you dare say that the emperor is nude. You will be shown the guillotine.
- dang 7y ago
  Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News along the way.
dzader 7y ago
we are.
evv 7y ago
Don't be amazed. It is part of American culture to criticize international and domestic policies that we disagree with. The Trump administration may be an embarrassment to the American people, but we are still free to call out injustices that we see. Anyone with a bit of bravery can be awesome enough to criticize China's authoritarian regime. Just don't do it while you're there.
darkpuma 7y ago
While civil rights deriving from the principle of awesomeness sounds like a totally rad way to run a society, in truth that is not the premise of America's First Amendment.
dang 7y ago
Please stop using HN for nationalistic battle. It doesn't matter which country you do or don't like—it leads to degenerate discussion and we don't want that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20277723 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20277723 was especially bad. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tchaffee 7y ago

> I believe we are mortgaging our future. Who is "we"? I thought the Hacker News community was international? > with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps Right now the US has children, separated from their parents at the border, caged up in chain link fences like animals. I agree the US does win over China when it comes to human rights overall, but I don't think Americans are in a good position to be talking about human rights abuses at this exact point in history. I am not personally attacking you. You made some reasonable points. I am suggesting that if you view the US from afar, like you are viewing China from afar, there might be some useful information there.

deehouie 7y ago

If you believe USA has better human rights record, think again. Just read about how this country treats its black citizens. Let me mention the Vietnam war, for which most HN readers are probably familiar with. I was in the War Remnants Museum in Saigon and here is what I saw. In one photo, taken by US journalist, a Viet Cong was being held on the ground by American GIs, a rag is placed over the man's face and water is poured over it, making breathing impossible. That's called water torture. And that was 1968.

free652 7y ago
Let me mention that th current Chinese regime is comparable to a regime of an European country in 1943. If we're talking about what happened 50 years ago, we can talk what happened 75 years ago as well.
throwaway66666 7y ago
Also... the USA is the only country that has used nuclear weapons against another country. And they dared do it twice! We think of them as barbarians. They think of us as barbarians. And the cycle of finger pointing goes on. Such a dangerous mindset to have.
lenkite 7y ago
So because a few individuals did something against the code of fighting conduct in 1968, a nation can run mass-incarceration camps and carry out forced organ harvesting for millions in 2019 ?

e40 7y ago

It's clear that globalization has some nasty side effects. Yes, there were people sounding these alarms back in the 90's. Did we heed them? No. I thought it was a little shrill. Now? I'm convinced that globalization has done some powerful good in the world, but it has also done some serious damage. The entire tilt to the right is the reaction to globalization. The Daily podcast (NYT) had a week-long series going to various EU countries and talking with people on the ground. It was eye opening, to say the least. I highly recommend it.

dang 7y ago

Although it's at least not an inflammatory swipe, this comment falls on the side of generic political and nationalistic battle. Please don't take HN threads on such tangents. Once internet comments degenerate to arguing the merits and demerits of entire countries, we're certain to have repetitive, predictable, and eventually nasty discussion. On HN we're trying to avoid all that. The subthread below is an example, and such things get worse as they get larger. Here are two heuristics to keep in mind: if it's generic, it's likely to be predictable; if it's predictable, it's uninteresting. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html