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I really hope they consider that Linux' graphic stack isn't an end in itself, but a driver for running the relative wealth of graphic apps (GIMP, Inkscape, Krit

I really hope they consider that Linux' graphic stack isn't an end in itself, but a driver for running the relative wealth of graphic apps (GIMP, Inkscape, Krita, Blender, Firefox, and more) many people spent the last 30 years or so developing. Those aren't going to be rewritten from scratch into Electron-based apps or whatever, and loosing them, as well as BSD and Mac OS compat, is no option IMHO.

_ph_ 7y ago
Why do you think those apps would need to be rewritten and what has electron to do with that? Most of these apps already run natively on top of Wayland, as they are written using a toolkit like GTK or QT and those toolkits support Wayland. Also, there is XWayland, which implements the X protocol on top of Wayland, so any X application should continue to run. The only thing they talked about stopping development on is the standalone X server X.org. I have been using Wayland on my desktop for a while and am quite happy about it.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Electron needs to be pushed down the stack to the bare metal, to become the window system itself. Then there will only be one instance of it running, that every other application can share, and the window manager and user interface and networking can all use standard web technologies, that everything else uses.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    If you disagree, then tell me what X-Windows or Wayland can do that a modern web browser with bare metal drivers couldn't do much better? You've got JavaScript and WebAssembly for programming, WebGL and <canvas> and <video> and DHTML and CSS for drawing (including low latency rendering with desynchronized canvases), JSON and XML and ArrayBuffer for data representation, HTTP and WebSockets and WebRTC for networking. What is it missing? https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2019/05/desynchronized https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2019/05/desynchron... There's really no need for X-Windows or Wayland any more.
    - tannhaeuser 7y ago
      Yeah you're looking (in typical nerd fashion, I might add; no pun) to the "optimal" stack for you and your future development workflow. But, you know, there aren't many GUI apps worth running on the Electron/browser stack. I need capable pixel and vector graphic editors, 3D modelling apps, audio editing apps, and tons of other apps for media production which are extremely time-consuming and expensive to create. I don't want to loose what we've achieved in F/OSS, because I don't believe we're going to get replacements for the likes of Inkscape, GIMP, G'Mic, Krita, Blender, etc. in these times of short-lived stacks and SaaS's, ever. And why would we want replacements? These apps have just begun to mature, and are working extremely well for me after 10-20 years of development and a bit of getting used to them.
    - carapace 7y ago
      You're catching downvotes (have some goddamned respect people) but I'm facing this choice right now. I have a project that involves a compiler written in Prolog targeting Prof. Wirth's RISC chip (for Project Oberon[1]), and I want to make it easily accessible. I can use e.g. TCL/Tk/Tkinter/Python+SWI-Prolog, and make a native app that the user has to install... or... There is a Prolog in JS[2], and an emulator for the chip in JS[3], and rich widget frameworks (I like Knockout[4], but there are literally dozens in JS), so it's pretty easy to make a SPA that shows off the code (literate programming style) along with live compilation and emulation, and you can even let users save their work[5]. "Installation" is just visiting the page. I keep trying to come up with reasons NOT to go that route (out of some perhaps-misplaced JS prejudice) and I can't. > There's really no need for X-Windows or Wayland any more. Indeed! [1] http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://www.projectoberon.com/ [2] Tau Prolog http://tau-prolog.org/ http://tau-prolog.org/ [3] http://schierlm.github.io/OberonEmulator/ http://schierlm.github.io/OberonEmulator/ https://github.com/schierlm/OberonEmulator https://github.com/schierlm/OberonEmulator [4] https://knockoutjs.com/ https://knockoutjs.com/ [5] https://calroc.github.io/HulloWurld/Hullo.html https://calroc.github.io/HulloWurld/Hullo.html
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Isn't this exactly what Chromebooks do? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't run X-Windows or Wayland, do they? And if they did, then what possible benefit would there be over just running the browser directly on the hardware, with the thinnest possible window management and graphics driver layer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS#New_window_manager_and_graphics_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS#New_window_manager_a... https://www.chromium.org/developers/mus-ash https://www.chromium.org/developers/mus-ash https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/aura https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/aura https://www.chromestory.com/2012/04/aura-and-ash-in-chrome-os-what-are-they/ https://www.chromestory.com/2012/04/aura-and-ash-in-chrome-o... http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/aura/aura-and-shell-dependencies http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/aura/aur...
- tannhaeuser 7y ago
  It's just that there are no new GUI apps since about ten years or longer, neither on Linux nor elsewhere (with few exceptions). In that situation, it makes me nervous to hear about grand plans to refactor/make obsolete the graphic stack. To what end if there aren't any new apps coming anyway? But OTOH, if Wayland benefits or motivates the developers and saves resources, more power to them.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    Even if there might not that many completely new GUI apps - I do think there are - any app updated, and most of them are, are automatically based on Wayland, if they link against a current Gtk/QT. And consequently make use of Wayland. I actually think it is the other way around: Wayland gives Linux on the desktop a whole new life as it is creating the technological foundation for a modern UI.
- hedora 7y ago
  GTK is now intentionally breaking API compatibility every release (but putting out a “supported until the end of time” release every two years). Unless they are porting GTK2 (which supported GTK1 apps as well) to wayland, then a decade of desktop apps will have to be rewritten (and will probably just bit rot to oblivion). Also, what about window managers? Those have to be rewritten for wayland, but they peaked in usability (for me) long ago.
  - opencl 7y ago
    Red Hat is going to keep maintaining X11 for at least the next 10 years (RHEL8 life cycle), I will be surprised if GTK2 hasn't already bitrotted into oblivion from other causes by then.
bitwize 7y ago
Maybe not, but the toolkits they're based on will drop X11 support within the next few years. X11 is a technological dead end, NetCraft^WRed Hat confirms it.
- geggam 7y ago
  So is BSD... so running X11 on BSD will be dead for the forseeable future ?
  - bitwize 7y ago
    Ha ha. Seriously, though, the BSDs will either adopt Wayland (work is already in progress) or die out entirely for desktop use.
    - geggam 7y ago
      OpenBSD has xenocara and I have laptops / resources that are 5 yrs old which function fine on today's web ( even with the javascript bloat ) It isn't hard to extrapolate a future where today's hardware will last me 10 + years on a desktop. Note : I am assuming javascript is at peak inefficiency

_ph_ 7y ago

Why do you think those apps would need to be rewritten and what has electron to do with that? Most of these apps already run natively on top of Wayland, as they are written using a toolkit like GTK or QT and those toolkits support Wayland. Also, there is XWayland, which implements the X protocol on top of Wayland, so any X application should continue to run. The only thing they talked about stopping development on is the standalone X server X.org. I have been using Wayland on my desktop for a while and am quite happy about it.

DonHopkins 7y ago
Electron needs to be pushed down the stack to the bare metal, to become the window system itself. Then there will only be one instance of it running, that every other application can share, and the window manager and user interface and networking can all use standard web technologies, that everything else uses.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  If you disagree, then tell me what X-Windows or Wayland can do that a modern web browser with bare metal drivers couldn't do much better? You've got JavaScript and WebAssembly for programming, WebGL and <canvas> and <video> and DHTML and CSS for drawing (including low latency rendering with desynchronized canvases), JSON and XML and ArrayBuffer for data representation, HTTP and WebSockets and WebRTC for networking. What is it missing? https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2019/05/desynchronized https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2019/05/desynchron... There's really no need for X-Windows or Wayland any more.
  - tannhaeuser 7y ago
    Yeah you're looking (in typical nerd fashion, I might add; no pun) to the "optimal" stack for you and your future development workflow. But, you know, there aren't many GUI apps worth running on the Electron/browser stack. I need capable pixel and vector graphic editors, 3D modelling apps, audio editing apps, and tons of other apps for media production which are extremely time-consuming and expensive to create. I don't want to loose what we've achieved in F/OSS, because I don't believe we're going to get replacements for the likes of Inkscape, GIMP, G'Mic, Krita, Blender, etc. in these times of short-lived stacks and SaaS's, ever. And why would we want replacements? These apps have just begun to mature, and are working extremely well for me after 10-20 years of development and a bit of getting used to them.
  - carapace 7y ago
    You're catching downvotes (have some goddamned respect people) but I'm facing this choice right now. I have a project that involves a compiler written in Prolog targeting Prof. Wirth's RISC chip (for Project Oberon[1]), and I want to make it easily accessible. I can use e.g. TCL/Tk/Tkinter/Python+SWI-Prolog, and make a native app that the user has to install... or... There is a Prolog in JS[2], and an emulator for the chip in JS[3], and rich widget frameworks (I like Knockout[4], but there are literally dozens in JS), so it's pretty easy to make a SPA that shows off the code (literate programming style) along with live compilation and emulation, and you can even let users save their work[5]. "Installation" is just visiting the page. I keep trying to come up with reasons NOT to go that route (out of some perhaps-misplaced JS prejudice) and I can't. > There's really no need for X-Windows or Wayland any more. Indeed! [1] http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://www.projectoberon.com/ [2] Tau Prolog http://tau-prolog.org/ http://tau-prolog.org/ [3] http://schierlm.github.io/OberonEmulator/ http://schierlm.github.io/OberonEmulator/ https://github.com/schierlm/OberonEmulator https://github.com/schierlm/OberonEmulator [4] https://knockoutjs.com/ https://knockoutjs.com/ [5] https://calroc.github.io/HulloWurld/Hullo.html https://calroc.github.io/HulloWurld/Hullo.html
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Isn't this exactly what Chromebooks do? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't run X-Windows or Wayland, do they? And if they did, then what possible benefit would there be over just running the browser directly on the hardware, with the thinnest possible window management and graphics driver layer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS#New_window_manager_and_graphics_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS#New_window_manager_a... https://www.chromium.org/developers/mus-ash https://www.chromium.org/developers/mus-ash https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/aura https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/aura https://www.chromestory.com/2012/04/aura-and-ash-in-chrome-os-what-are-they/ https://www.chromestory.com/2012/04/aura-and-ash-in-chrome-o... http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/aura/aura-and-shell-dependencies http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/aura/aur...
tannhaeuser 7y ago
It's just that there are no new GUI apps since about ten years or longer, neither on Linux nor elsewhere (with few exceptions). In that situation, it makes me nervous to hear about grand plans to refactor/make obsolete the graphic stack. To what end if there aren't any new apps coming anyway? But OTOH, if Wayland benefits or motivates the developers and saves resources, more power to them.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Even if there might not that many completely new GUI apps - I do think there are - any app updated, and most of them are, are automatically based on Wayland, if they link against a current Gtk/QT. And consequently make use of Wayland. I actually think it is the other way around: Wayland gives Linux on the desktop a whole new life as it is creating the technological foundation for a modern UI.
hedora 7y ago
GTK is now intentionally breaking API compatibility every release (but putting out a “supported until the end of time” release every two years). Unless they are porting GTK2 (which supported GTK1 apps as well) to wayland, then a decade of desktop apps will have to be rewritten (and will probably just bit rot to oblivion). Also, what about window managers? Those have to be rewritten for wayland, but they peaked in usability (for me) long ago.
- opencl 7y ago
  Red Hat is going to keep maintaining X11 for at least the next 10 years (RHEL8 life cycle), I will be surprised if GTK2 hasn't already bitrotted into oblivion from other causes by then.

bitwize 7y ago

Maybe not, but the toolkits they're based on will drop X11 support within the next few years. X11 is a technological dead end, NetCraft^WRed Hat confirms it.

geggam 7y ago
So is BSD... so running X11 on BSD will be dead for the forseeable future ?
- bitwize 7y ago
  Ha ha. Seriously, though, the BSDs will either adopt Wayland (work is already in progress) or die out entirely for desktop use.
  - geggam 7y ago
    OpenBSD has xenocara and I have laptops / resources that are 5 yrs old which function fine on today's web ( even with the javascript bloat ) It isn't hard to extrapolate a future where today's hardware will last me 10 + years on a desktop. Note : I am assuming javascript is at peak inefficiency