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Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API.

by mspnp 7y ago

dragonwriter 7y ago
> Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API. Linux on the desktop (and other consumer devices) is a reality, via Android and ChromeOS. What's not a reality is consumer use of the userspace tools and desktop environments lots of people mentally associate with Linux, but I doubt very much that's about driver APIs.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Ah the typical pat in the back. ChromeOS and Android could be running on top of Windows kernel and userspace would hardly notice.
  - cwyers 7y ago
    And "Android's adoption shows that Linux doesn't need a stable driver ABI" is a funny position to take, given how many problems that's caused Android, to the point where Google is adding a way for vendor drivers to work across versions of Android. https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes...
  - kevingadd 7y ago
    Incidentally, the Windows Subsystem for Linux was reportedly the result of an effort to run Android userspace on top of the Windows Kernel that was at least somewhat successful, so your assertion is completely true. (https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/25/microsoft-kills-project-astoria-its-tool-for-porting-android-apps-to-windows-10/ https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/25/microsoft-kills-project-a...)
Iolaum 7y ago
Not really. It is well known across the industry how you can get drivers in linux now. There many players, big (Dell, Lenovo) and small (system76, Entroware, etc) that sell linux supported devices. Here's a great write up on the technical merits of linux's approach to drivers https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-api-nonsense.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-api-no...
- rocqua 7y ago
  I think OP was thinking about commercial players who do not like to upstream their driver code. This might be for copyright/GPL reasons, or for trade-secret / code obscurity reasons. This is impossible with linux drivers. To quote from your link: So, if you have a Linux kernel driver that is not in the main kernel tree, what are you, a developer, supposed to do? Releasing a binary driver for every different kernel version for every distribution is a nightmare, and trying to keep up with an ever changing kernel interface is also a rough job. Simple, get your kernel driver into the main kernel tree (remember we are talking about drivers released under a GPL-compatible license here, if your code doesn’t fall under this category, good luck, you are on your own here, -snip-). Thing is, this excludes quite a lot of drivers from getting into the kernel. And that kind of sucks.
  - akoncius 7y ago
    I’m noob what regards kernel specifics, so probably a stupid question: so basically if you want kernel to support all possible hardware in the world, you would need to add those drivers to main kernel ? seems like a bad idea because the kernel’s source code would not fit into terabyte size disk..
    - mixmastamyk 7y ago
      There are a fewer drivers needed these days as interfaces become standardized. Most stuff uses a standard USB driver for example.
    - rocqua 7y ago
      If you want your driver to run in kernel space you need that code to be in the main kernel. Anything that runs in user-space can be kept outside of the main kernel repo. There is a bad middle version where you put some interface exposed to user-space into the mainline kernel and then dump in binary-blobs to interface with this. The bad part is doing this if you will be the only user of that interface, and if you do it to intentionally keep your driver out of the kernel. I believe there was/is an attempt by nvidea to essentially get a shim for their windows drivers into the kernel. The good version of this is where the userspace interface evolves naturally, and in cooperation between multiple consumers. Or at least a case where in the end there are multiple consumers of the interface in the end.
jhasse 7y ago
Not having to commit to a stable driver API has advantages, too.

Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API.

by mspnp 7y ago

Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API.

> Linux on the desktop would be a reality already if Linux had a stable driver API. Linux on the desktop (and other consumer devices) is a reality, via Android and ChromeOS. What's not a reality is consumer use of the userspace tools and desktop environments lots of people mentally associate with Linux, but I doubt very much that's about driver APIs.

pjmlp 7y ago
Ah the typical pat in the back. ChromeOS and Android could be running on top of Windows kernel and userspace would hardly notice.
- cwyers 7y ago
  And "Android's adoption shows that Linux doesn't need a stable driver ABI" is a funny position to take, given how many problems that's caused Android, to the point where Google is adding a way for vendor drivers to work across versions of Android. https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes...
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Incidentally, the Windows Subsystem for Linux was reportedly the result of an effort to run Android userspace on top of the Windows Kernel that was at least somewhat successful, so your assertion is completely true. (https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/25/microsoft-kills-project-astoria-its-tool-for-porting-android-apps-to-windows-10/ https://venturebeat.com/2016/02/25/microsoft-kills-project-a...)

Iolaum 7y ago

Not really. It is well known across the industry how you can get drivers in linux now. There many players, big (Dell, Lenovo) and small (system76, Entroware, etc) that sell linux supported devices. Here's a great write up on the technical merits of linux's approach to drivers https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-api-nonsense.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-api-no...

rocqua 7y ago
I think OP was thinking about commercial players who do not like to upstream their driver code. This might be for copyright/GPL reasons, or for trade-secret / code obscurity reasons. This is impossible with linux drivers. To quote from your link: So, if you have a Linux kernel driver that is not in the main kernel tree, what are you, a developer, supposed to do? Releasing a binary driver for every different kernel version for every distribution is a nightmare, and trying to keep up with an ever changing kernel interface is also a rough job. Simple, get your kernel driver into the main kernel tree (remember we are talking about drivers released under a GPL-compatible license here, if your code doesn’t fall under this category, good luck, you are on your own here, -snip-). Thing is, this excludes quite a lot of drivers from getting into the kernel. And that kind of sucks.
- akoncius 7y ago
  I’m noob what regards kernel specifics, so probably a stupid question: so basically if you want kernel to support all possible hardware in the world, you would need to add those drivers to main kernel ? seems like a bad idea because the kernel’s source code would not fit into terabyte size disk..
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    There are a fewer drivers needed these days as interfaces become standardized. Most stuff uses a standard USB driver for example.
  - rocqua 7y ago
    If you want your driver to run in kernel space you need that code to be in the main kernel. Anything that runs in user-space can be kept outside of the main kernel repo. There is a bad middle version where you put some interface exposed to user-space into the mainline kernel and then dump in binary-blobs to interface with this. The bad part is doing this if you will be the only user of that interface, and if you do it to intentionally keep your driver out of the kernel. I believe there was/is an attempt by nvidea to essentially get a shim for their windows drivers into the kernel. The good version of this is where the userspace interface evolves naturally, and in cooperation between multiple consumers. Or at least a case where in the end there are multiple consumers of the interface in the end.

jhasse 7y ago

Not having to commit to a stable driver API has advantages, too.