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But equally, the consumer buys what the consumer wants. All Apple is guilty of is making decisions that feed the consumer's wants. Apple's income is proof posit

But equally, the consumer buys what the consumer wants. All Apple is guilty of is making decisions that feed the consumer's wants. Apple's income is proof positive that the consumer is willing to pay as much as they are, and quite probably more, to get their hands on what Apple have designed and for all the bad there is in the phone's design, there's enough good that enough people are willing to part with high amounts of money to get their products.

pjmorris 7y ago
> But equally, the consumer buys what the consumer wants. I don't believe in this equality. The consumer is limited to buying what is available in the market, which may not be what the consumer wants. For example, if I had the option to buy a current Macbook Pro without a touchbar, and with the circa-2015 keyboard, I'd do so.
- magduf 7y ago
  There's never going to be an infinite array of choices in a free market; there's only so many people and companies, and they can only make so many different things efficiently and sell them. Apple made the decision to sell the Macbook with the touchbar, and you're free to either buy it or not. Personally, I don't like Macs or Apple, so I don't buy them at all, and I advise my friends and family to avoid them too. Most of them don't listen to me, and insist they "need" Apple products and pay top dollar for them, even though many of them are struggling financially. I try showing them my nice Android phone with removable batteries and dual cameras that I got for $140 on Ebay and that has MVNO service that costs a fraction of what they pay monthly to the big carriers, but it goes in one ear and out the other. Then they wonder why they're always broke and why I seem to be loaded.... Anyway, if you don't like the current Macs, don't buy them. It's really as simple as that. I have a Dell Latitude laptop that's (I think) 4 years old and easily repairable which I also bought used (ex-corporate lease), so I'm keeping it. And I have a phone that's 2-3 years old and has replaceable batteries, an SDcard slot with a 128GB card in it, and that cost me relatively little, and I'm keeping that for the time being too. Maybe if I see something better that I get excited by, I'll buy it, but I'm not dumb enough to buy something just because that's what some company wants me to buy.
  - sundvor 7y ago
    But it's not that simple. No other company can legally sell OS-X computers; some of the software on the platform is Mac only. So if you're in the Mac ecosystem then making a switch to Windows or Linux can be a major hurdle. I'm saying that as a die-hard Windows fan (well, after Nadella took over) who's now currently enjoying Windows Terminal (beta), the Linux Subsystem, and some major improvements in the usability of the Win10 OS. Not to mention their new Edge Browser, Code, and .net Core - the list goes on. Even though I believe the grass is much greener on this side, I can fully understand that a huge number of people don't want to or can't easily change. The new Macbook Pros are beautifully designed, if it just wasn't for that missing row of keys and total lack of travel in those that remain.
    - mschuster91 7y ago
      > Even though I believe the grass is much greener on this side It is? Forced upgrades and fucking ads in the OS, not to mention tracking that cannot even be disabled in the Enterprise editions? I rather pay more for a Mac and not be haunted by ads. There's enough ads on the Internet even with an adblocker, all over public space (TV, radio, newspapers, on the sides of buildings, cars, in public transport), I don't need them in my OS too...
      - sundvor 7y ago
        I haven't seen much of any ads after I performed my post install clean ups. I agree the pre installed games are a nuisance and need to go. I can manage my updates by using the many tools provided in the Pro edition in later updates (1 year ago). You probably haven't seen those? I don't mind Microsoft collecting telemetry that relates to Windows updates Vs hardware configurations. You don't really need so much of that in osx land as Apple owns all the core hardware. In Windows, there's many magnitudes more configs.
        mschuster91 7y ago
        > I haven't seen much of any ads after I performed my post install clean ups. One should not be supposed to do manual clean-ups simply to have an OS that's ad free. We pay for Windows, after all. > I don't mind Microsoft collecting telemetry that relates to Windows updates Vs hardware configurations. The problem is that the "telemetry" is totally intransparent and uncontrollable. In the case of Office 365 there is no way to operate it inside the EU and conforming to the GDPR (https://www.datenschutz-notizen.de/office-16-und-office-365-datenschutz-handlungsbedarf-im-unternehmen-5521774/ https://www.datenschutz-notizen.de/office-16-und-office-365-...).
- rubber_duck 7y ago
  >For example, if I had the option to buy a current Macbook Pro without a touchbar, and with the circa-2015 keyboard, I'd do so. Given enough money I'm sure you could find someone to do a custom build :)
- balabaster 7y ago
  Ah yes, but you'd still buy the Macbook Pro, because all other things being equal the Macbook Pro with the touchbar still suits your purpose better than the alternative available product. The market bears out because you vote with your money. It may not be quite what you want, but you'd rather make the trade off and pay Apple what they want you to pay than go without or have the alternative product. Thus you pay for what you want. Your money tells Apple that even though you may not like their product completely, they're still doing a good enough job for you to pay what they demand you to pay for it. That's all companies really care about. It's like an abusive relationship with a narcissist, they give you juuuuuust enough to keep you there, but never enough to feel truly happy about life.
dredmorbius 7y ago
"consumer buys what the consumer wants" And the supplier uses AI-guided targeted advertising to tell the public exactly what it wants. The market decision loop has been broken for a long time. You could go back to the US auto industry of the 1950s - early 70s, telling (and convincing) the buying public that it wanted huge, heavy, overpowered, inefficient, unsafe, poorly-handling, and tremendously fuel-inefficient cars. Until reality did what it does and imposed, and the buying public didn't, and Japan and Germany were more than happy to sell them what they discovered they did want: well-engineered, efficient, inexpensive (until 1980s import quota limits drove manufacturers up-market), better-handling, and safer cars.

pjmorris 7y ago

> But equally, the consumer buys what the consumer wants. I don't believe in this equality. The consumer is limited to buying what is available in the market, which may not be what the consumer wants. For example, if I had the option to buy a current Macbook Pro without a touchbar, and with the circa-2015 keyboard, I'd do so.

magduf 7y ago
There's never going to be an infinite array of choices in a free market; there's only so many people and companies, and they can only make so many different things efficiently and sell them. Apple made the decision to sell the Macbook with the touchbar, and you're free to either buy it or not. Personally, I don't like Macs or Apple, so I don't buy them at all, and I advise my friends and family to avoid them too. Most of them don't listen to me, and insist they "need" Apple products and pay top dollar for them, even though many of them are struggling financially. I try showing them my nice Android phone with removable batteries and dual cameras that I got for $140 on Ebay and that has MVNO service that costs a fraction of what they pay monthly to the big carriers, but it goes in one ear and out the other. Then they wonder why they're always broke and why I seem to be loaded.... Anyway, if you don't like the current Macs, don't buy them. It's really as simple as that. I have a Dell Latitude laptop that's (I think) 4 years old and easily repairable which I also bought used (ex-corporate lease), so I'm keeping it. And I have a phone that's 2-3 years old and has replaceable batteries, an SDcard slot with a 128GB card in it, and that cost me relatively little, and I'm keeping that for the time being too. Maybe if I see something better that I get excited by, I'll buy it, but I'm not dumb enough to buy something just because that's what some company wants me to buy.
- sundvor 7y ago
  But it's not that simple. No other company can legally sell OS-X computers; some of the software on the platform is Mac only. So if you're in the Mac ecosystem then making a switch to Windows or Linux can be a major hurdle. I'm saying that as a die-hard Windows fan (well, after Nadella took over) who's now currently enjoying Windows Terminal (beta), the Linux Subsystem, and some major improvements in the usability of the Win10 OS. Not to mention their new Edge Browser, Code, and .net Core - the list goes on. Even though I believe the grass is much greener on this side, I can fully understand that a huge number of people don't want to or can't easily change. The new Macbook Pros are beautifully designed, if it just wasn't for that missing row of keys and total lack of travel in those that remain.
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    > Even though I believe the grass is much greener on this side It is? Forced upgrades and fucking ads in the OS, not to mention tracking that cannot even be disabled in the Enterprise editions? I rather pay more for a Mac and not be haunted by ads. There's enough ads on the Internet even with an adblocker, all over public space (TV, radio, newspapers, on the sides of buildings, cars, in public transport), I don't need them in my OS too...
    - sundvor 7y ago
      I haven't seen much of any ads after I performed my post install clean ups. I agree the pre installed games are a nuisance and need to go. I can manage my updates by using the many tools provided in the Pro edition in later updates (1 year ago). You probably haven't seen those? I don't mind Microsoft collecting telemetry that relates to Windows updates Vs hardware configurations. You don't really need so much of that in osx land as Apple owns all the core hardware. In Windows, there's many magnitudes more configs.
      - mschuster91 7y ago
        > I haven't seen much of any ads after I performed my post install clean ups. One should not be supposed to do manual clean-ups simply to have an OS that's ad free. We pay for Windows, after all. > I don't mind Microsoft collecting telemetry that relates to Windows updates Vs hardware configurations. The problem is that the "telemetry" is totally intransparent and uncontrollable. In the case of Office 365 there is no way to operate it inside the EU and conforming to the GDPR (https://www.datenschutz-notizen.de/office-16-und-office-365-datenschutz-handlungsbedarf-im-unternehmen-5521774/ https://www.datenschutz-notizen.de/office-16-und-office-365-...).
rubber_duck 7y ago
>For example, if I had the option to buy a current Macbook Pro without a touchbar, and with the circa-2015 keyboard, I'd do so. Given enough money I'm sure you could find someone to do a custom build :)
balabaster 7y ago
Ah yes, but you'd still buy the Macbook Pro, because all other things being equal the Macbook Pro with the touchbar still suits your purpose better than the alternative available product. The market bears out because you vote with your money. It may not be quite what you want, but you'd rather make the trade off and pay Apple what they want you to pay than go without or have the alternative product. Thus you pay for what you want. Your money tells Apple that even though you may not like their product completely, they're still doing a good enough job for you to pay what they demand you to pay for it. That's all companies really care about. It's like an abusive relationship with a narcissist, they give you juuuuuust enough to keep you there, but never enough to feel truly happy about life.

dredmorbius 7y ago

"consumer buys what the consumer wants" And the supplier uses AI-guided targeted advertising to tell the public exactly what it wants. The market decision loop has been broken for a long time. You could go back to the US auto industry of the 1950s - early 70s, telling (and convincing) the buying public that it wanted huge, heavy, overpowered, inefficient, unsafe, poorly-handling, and tremendously fuel-inefficient cars. Until reality did what it does and imposed, and the buying public didn't, and Japan and Germany were more than happy to sell them what they discovered they did want: well-engineered, efficient, inexpensive (until 1980s import quota limits drove manufacturers up-market), better-handling, and safer cars.