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Well sure American and other companies have tried to gain market share in China, but China has effectively stifled a lot of foreign competitors from entering. S

by tekkk 7y ago

Well sure American and other companies have tried to gain market share in China, but China has effectively stifled a lot of foreign competitors from entering. So it's not very symmetric free trade with China, therefore giving some justification for this silly trade war. It's understandable though from China's perspective, that they aren't willing to give up important strategic sectors like social media or internet search to some US corporation. Especially so with their intention of being a rivaling global superpower to US one day. But it seems the economical aspect of increasing the revenues of Chinese companies has been as important or even more, which makes this practise more or less just cheating. Not that others are playing always fair, but China seems to be doing it considerably more than the others. Just as an anecdote, AWS offers its Chinese region as a separately owned Chinese company, completely separate from other AWS regions. To me it speaks volumes how restrictive and hostile the Chinese market is to foreign companies, can you imagine having to do the same for each country? It would be a nightmare for global economy. https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/13/aws-exits-china/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/13/aws-exits-china/

pm90 7y ago
> To me it speaks volumes how restrictive and hostile the Chinese market is to foreign companies, can you imagine having to do the same for each country? China is the most populated country on earth and an emerging superpower. They have every right to consider themselves exceptional, just the way the US considers itself exceptional. To posit another angle: most international nations are smaller markets than the US (individually) so it doesn't make sense to customize things for every nation, which would be a goddamn nightmare. But this is a country of over 1.3 Billion people. China would need to be an exception anyway, and AWS having a subsidiary in China doesn't illustrate the unfairness of China's practices as much as the reality of how important that market really is.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  > international nations What's an international nation?
- rhino369 7y ago
  You are just rationalizing China’s purposeful one way trade barriers.
  - pm90 7y ago
    Explain to me how billions of dollars in subsidies for agriculture are not one way trade barriers.
    - kazagistar 7y ago
      If all China was doing was investing in it's own industries and sponsoring them, it would be very different from it's current policy of actually locking out competitors who dont have a local presence and such. There is a steep difference between positive economic assistance and negative legal barriers.
      - echaozh 7y ago
        Without a local presence, how can the business be hold responsible if there's misdeed? US senators may even want to deny Huawei compensation for patent infringement in the US.
    - rhino369 7y ago
      It definitely is. But the magnitude is much different. China makes it very hard to do business in a wide spectrum of industries. That's their right. But it's not free trade in any sense.
- davemp 7y ago
  > China is the most populated country on earth and an emerging superpower. They have every right to consider themselves exceptional, just the way the US considers itself exceptional. Being highly populated and powerful is not really an exception in history. The USA got (? gets) its sense of exceptionalism from their innovative form of government/constitution that provided more freedoms than any government in history. The roots are based in a sense morality.
  - 18pfsmt 7y ago
    There is a notable anti-US, anti-liberal (in the classical sense) contingent on HN that is somewhat recent. These people hate the US, but can't stop visiting our websties to tell us about it. It is getting out of hand. America is not a place, it's an idea (I realize you get this idea).
    - pm90 7y ago
      Expressing criticism about American policy isn't the same as being anti-US. I would argue that it is people like you who are the real haters of what America stands for. Hint: America is not about flag waiving, native pride that you betray in your statements ("can't stop visiting _our_ websties ")
      - 18pfsmt 7y ago
        I know where the servers for HN are hosted (as does anyone that cares), and it's not in your country. Our servers. Yes we give you access more than you deserve, but dang does his thing quite well.
      - 18pfsmt 7y ago
        If any of your people believe these ideas, I will pick you up at Denver Airport, and deliver you anywhere you like.
wbl 7y ago
And the right way to out pressure on China would be to get a bunch of countries to update WTO and GATT to include these kinds of services. Instead Trump went it alone after alienating everyone else. How is that supposed to work?
- fspeech 7y ago
  The US would never allow Chinese companies to operate similar services in the US to any scale for national security reasons. So it is better to keep these issues as talking points than actually resolving them.
sangnoir 7y ago
> Well sure American and other companies have tried to gain market share in China, but China has effectively stifled a lot of foreign competitors from entering. "National Interest" is the key phrase, and the US has similar protective barriers in key industries. Food security is one such area that the US protects, and to that end, it provides a lot of agricultural subsidies preventing a lot of foreign farmers from entering the American market. The pearl-clutching when China does the same in their national interest is lacking in self-awareness. The US agricultural subsidies have interesting first- and second-order effects (cheap corn syrup, obesity and corporate farm consolidation) - but I digress.
- tynpeddler 7y ago
  As always, context matters. The shear scope and scale of China's protectionism, coupled with their flagrant disregard of international norms and aggressive, state sponsored campaign of industrial espionage is simply breathtaking. China has been waging a trade war for 20 years, it's time for everyone else to respond.
adinobro 7y ago
There are stacks of US companies that have made a significant entry into China: * Coke * Starbucks (the largest one in the world is currently in Shanghai) * KFC * McDonalds * Pizza Hut * Domino's Pizza * US movies regularly make as much money in China as they do in the US. * General Motors sells more cars in China than in the US. Have they put in place limits that they are legally allowed to put in place based in WTO rules? Yes. Part of the reason that AWS has two separate companies is because China, the US & the EU have laws like the CLOUD Act, GDPR and CDPR. It is easier to keep all companies seperate or at least siloed which is what most large companies do.
- ridewinter 7y ago
  A wise man once said that all of the business contracts in the world don’t matter if the two sides don’t trust each other. So just claiming to stay within the rules & limits is not enough. Good faith goes a long way.

by tekkk 7y ago

pm90 7y ago

> To me it speaks volumes how restrictive and hostile the Chinese market is to foreign companies, can you imagine having to do the same for each country? China is the most populated country on earth and an emerging superpower. They have every right to consider themselves exceptional, just the way the US considers itself exceptional. To posit another angle: most international nations are smaller markets than the US (individually) so it doesn't make sense to customize things for every nation, which would be a goddamn nightmare. But this is a country of over 1.3 Billion people. China would need to be an exception anyway, and AWS having a subsidiary in China doesn't illustrate the unfairness of China's practices as much as the reality of how important that market really is.

jacquesm 7y ago
> international nations What's an international nation?
rhino369 7y ago
You are just rationalizing China’s purposeful one way trade barriers.
- pm90 7y ago
  Explain to me how billions of dollars in subsidies for agriculture are not one way trade barriers.
  - kazagistar 7y ago
    If all China was doing was investing in it's own industries and sponsoring them, it would be very different from it's current policy of actually locking out competitors who dont have a local presence and such. There is a steep difference between positive economic assistance and negative legal barriers.
    - echaozh 7y ago
      Without a local presence, how can the business be hold responsible if there's misdeed? US senators may even want to deny Huawei compensation for patent infringement in the US.
  - rhino369 7y ago
    It definitely is. But the magnitude is much different. China makes it very hard to do business in a wide spectrum of industries. That's their right. But it's not free trade in any sense.
davemp 7y ago
> China is the most populated country on earth and an emerging superpower. They have every right to consider themselves exceptional, just the way the US considers itself exceptional. Being highly populated and powerful is not really an exception in history. The USA got (? gets) its sense of exceptionalism from their innovative form of government/constitution that provided more freedoms than any government in history. The roots are based in a sense morality.
- 18pfsmt 7y ago
  There is a notable anti-US, anti-liberal (in the classical sense) contingent on HN that is somewhat recent. These people hate the US, but can't stop visiting our websties to tell us about it. It is getting out of hand. America is not a place, it's an idea (I realize you get this idea).
  - pm90 7y ago
    Expressing criticism about American policy isn't the same as being anti-US. I would argue that it is people like you who are the real haters of what America stands for. Hint: America is not about flag waiving, native pride that you betray in your statements ("can't stop visiting _our_ websties ")
    - 18pfsmt 7y ago
      I know where the servers for HN are hosted (as does anyone that cares), and it's not in your country. Our servers. Yes we give you access more than you deserve, but dang does his thing quite well.
    - 18pfsmt 7y ago
      If any of your people believe these ideas, I will pick you up at Denver Airport, and deliver you anywhere you like.

wbl 7y ago

And the right way to out pressure on China would be to get a bunch of countries to update WTO and GATT to include these kinds of services. Instead Trump went it alone after alienating everyone else. How is that supposed to work?

fspeech 7y ago
The US would never allow Chinese companies to operate similar services in the US to any scale for national security reasons. So it is better to keep these issues as talking points than actually resolving them.

sangnoir 7y ago

> Well sure American and other companies have tried to gain market share in China, but China has effectively stifled a lot of foreign competitors from entering. "National Interest" is the key phrase, and the US has similar protective barriers in key industries. Food security is one such area that the US protects, and to that end, it provides a lot of agricultural subsidies preventing a lot of foreign farmers from entering the American market. The pearl-clutching when China does the same in their national interest is lacking in self-awareness. The US agricultural subsidies have interesting first- and second-order effects (cheap corn syrup, obesity and corporate farm consolidation) - but I digress.

tynpeddler 7y ago
As always, context matters. The shear scope and scale of China's protectionism, coupled with their flagrant disregard of international norms and aggressive, state sponsored campaign of industrial espionage is simply breathtaking. China has been waging a trade war for 20 years, it's time for everyone else to respond.

adinobro 7y ago

There are stacks of US companies that have made a significant entry into China: * Coke * Starbucks (the largest one in the world is currently in Shanghai) * KFC * McDonalds * Pizza Hut * Domino's Pizza * US movies regularly make as much money in China as they do in the US. * General Motors sells more cars in China than in the US. Have they put in place limits that they are legally allowed to put in place based in WTO rules? Yes. Part of the reason that AWS has two separate companies is because China, the US & the EU have laws like the CLOUD Act, GDPR and CDPR. It is easier to keep all companies seperate or at least siloed which is what most large companies do.

ridewinter 7y ago
A wise man once said that all of the business contracts in the world don’t matter if the two sides don’t trust each other. So just claiming to stay within the rules & limits is not enough. Good faith goes a long way.