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Welp, not that our product is that popular, we're selling in one country only, but there are exactly zero tests. Everything is manual. And I think this is still

Welp, not that our product is that popular, we're selling in one country only, but there are exactly zero tests. Everything is manual. And I think this is still how the majority of projects out there do it. Not that this is great, but management, and a lot of devs don't see too much value in it, more like "nice to have if there's extra time".

not_kurt_godel 7y ago
That is not how the majority of professional software projects do things, and even if it were it doesn't matter because npm is not your average software project anyway. It is absolute clown status that they don't have integ tests to catch this sort of thing, and adds yet more doubt in my mind about the wisdom of using it (on top of an already considerable doubt pile).
- aprdm 7y ago
  How do you know how majority of it isn't like this ? Having a few years of experience and having worked in 10+ companies across different industries I would be surprised if it wasn't the case.
- emerongi 7y ago
  Pretty sure it is how the majority of software projects are doing it, but I agree that NPM is not your average software project.
- fps_doug 7y ago
  Define "professional". If "professional" == "projects that have tests" you're probably right. ;-) Otherwise, you might've gotten lucky with your previous jobs/open source projects you contributed to. The best I've seen so far at the 4 jobs I had in my life were that some, mostly smaller, components had test suites, then others some half-arsed attempts that stopped being maintained a year or two ago, and as soon as some test stopped working because something got refactored, it was simply removed if it couldn't be fixed within a couple minutes. My previous job probably had the best test coverage, but still not integration tests. Maybe it's because people slowly become more conscious about the importance.
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    I'm still amazed that there are companies that actually test diligently (I work at one now -- I sometimes complain about our tests, but in general they are pretty darn good). Literally only 20 years ago there were a lot of places you'd be laughed out of if you suggested writing automated tests for all of your code (or even any of your code ;-) ). The first time I did TDD seriously, I thought, "I'd better hang on to this job. I'll never get another one like it". But, it seems that there are groups that are doing it, and even people who think you aren't professional unless you are doing it. It's down right amazing!
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  To drop another n=4 anecdote, yes, all places I worked in were more-less like that. (One reason why I dislike the terms like "professional software $something" or "industry standard" is because while they connote quality, they're defined by "as done by people who are paid to do this" and "the popular thing among people who get paid for this work", respectively. The two viewpoints - quality vs. what professionals do - are almost completely opposite in practice, given the shit show our industry is.)
  - Sahhaese 7y ago
    I prefer the term "best practice" to capture what companies should do but typically don't adhere to all best practices for everything.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  Dude, I'm pretty sure the only people that have all this "best practice CI mumbojumbo" are people on HN. Also, they use it not because they know that it saves them time, but because they're afraid other HN people like you will shame them if they don't.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    Your comment would be better without the first word, it’s unnecessary. That aside, I often think and read about the Toyota Production System, and notice how the industry I work in, structural steel fabrication and erection, a subset of the construction industry, has a tenancy to me nothing like it. It’s interesting that software production has similar failings. Just recently another building in Sydney suffered serious structural faults[1]; the 737 Max is a disaster; the MacBook Pro keyboard is an unmitigated dumpster fire that, let’s be serious, got Jony Ive sacked; Tesla and Musk are pathologically deceptive. I’m beginning to think we’ve lost the ability to build anything of genuine quality. In my opinion we have reached and passed Peak Design and Manufacturing. I could be wrong. What genuinely quality and durable things do humans make?
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      > Your comment would be better without the first word, it’s unnecessary. You couldn't be more wrong. The word sets the tone and frame for the entire comment. It is, in fact, the most important word of the whole comment. > In my opinion we have reached and passed Peak Design and Manufacturing. The second+ generation of any product is often worse in many respects, because the companies figure out which corners they can cut without losing the customer. > What genuinely quality and durable things do humans make? Humans don't really care much for durability, perhaps because they're not durable themselves.
bassman9000 7y ago
How old is the product? Have you done any decent refactoring?

not_kurt_godel 7y ago

That is not how the majority of professional software projects do things, and even if it were it doesn't matter because npm is not your average software project anyway. It is absolute clown status that they don't have integ tests to catch this sort of thing, and adds yet more doubt in my mind about the wisdom of using it (on top of an already considerable doubt pile).

aprdm 7y ago
How do you know how majority of it isn't like this ? Having a few years of experience and having worked in 10+ companies across different industries I would be surprised if it wasn't the case.
emerongi 7y ago
Pretty sure it is how the majority of software projects are doing it, but I agree that NPM is not your average software project.
fps_doug 7y ago
Define "professional". If "professional" == "projects that have tests" you're probably right. ;-) Otherwise, you might've gotten lucky with your previous jobs/open source projects you contributed to. The best I've seen so far at the 4 jobs I had in my life were that some, mostly smaller, components had test suites, then others some half-arsed attempts that stopped being maintained a year or two ago, and as soon as some test stopped working because something got refactored, it was simply removed if it couldn't be fixed within a couple minutes. My previous job probably had the best test coverage, but still not integration tests. Maybe it's because people slowly become more conscious about the importance.
- mikekchar 7y ago
  I'm still amazed that there are companies that actually test diligently (I work at one now -- I sometimes complain about our tests, but in general they are pretty darn good). Literally only 20 years ago there were a lot of places you'd be laughed out of if you suggested writing automated tests for all of your code (or even any of your code ;-) ). The first time I did TDD seriously, I thought, "I'd better hang on to this job. I'll never get another one like it". But, it seems that there are groups that are doing it, and even people who think you aren't professional unless you are doing it. It's down right amazing!
TeMPOraL 7y ago
To drop another n=4 anecdote, yes, all places I worked in were more-less like that. (One reason why I dislike the terms like "professional software $something" or "industry standard" is because while they connote quality, they're defined by "as done by people who are paid to do this" and "the popular thing among people who get paid for this work", respectively. The two viewpoints - quality vs. what professionals do - are almost completely opposite in practice, given the shit show our industry is.)
- Sahhaese 7y ago
  I prefer the term "best practice" to capture what companies should do but typically don't adhere to all best practices for everything.
gridlockd 7y ago
Dude, I'm pretty sure the only people that have all this "best practice CI mumbojumbo" are people on HN. Also, they use it not because they know that it saves them time, but because they're afraid other HN people like you will shame them if they don't.
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  Your comment would be better without the first word, it’s unnecessary. That aside, I often think and read about the Toyota Production System, and notice how the industry I work in, structural steel fabrication and erection, a subset of the construction industry, has a tenancy to me nothing like it. It’s interesting that software production has similar failings. Just recently another building in Sydney suffered serious structural faults[1]; the 737 Max is a disaster; the MacBook Pro keyboard is an unmitigated dumpster fire that, let’s be serious, got Jony Ive sacked; Tesla and Musk are pathologically deceptive. I’m beginning to think we’ve lost the ability to build anything of genuine quality. In my opinion we have reached and passed Peak Design and Manufacturing. I could be wrong. What genuinely quality and durable things do humans make?
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > Your comment would be better without the first word, it’s unnecessary. You couldn't be more wrong. The word sets the tone and frame for the entire comment. It is, in fact, the most important word of the whole comment. > In my opinion we have reached and passed Peak Design and Manufacturing. The second+ generation of any product is often worse in many respects, because the companies figure out which corners they can cut without losing the customer. > What genuinely quality and durable things do humans make? Humans don't really care much for durability, perhaps because they're not durable themselves.

bassman9000 7y ago

How old is the product? Have you done any decent refactoring?