5 ms·

> Microsoft etc have not been forced to do these IP sharing agreements Microsoft regularly shares Windows source code with foreign governments for them to insp

by mappu 7y ago

> Microsoft etc have not been forced to do these IP sharing agreements Microsoft regularly shares Windows source code with foreign governments for them to inspect. From 2003 https://www.infoworld.com/article/2681548/china-gets-access-to-microsoft-source-code.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2681548/china-gets-access-...

monocasa 7y ago
That seems like the same sort of difference between source available and free software. Seems like a minute difference from a cursory glance, but it turns out the graph of dependencies and derived works is more important than the the code itself.
- steve19 7y ago
  That and software can be easily decompiled. It's not that hard if you really want to know how something works. I learnt enough asm to modify a modern app that was essential to my work flow but had been abandoned by the developers. It didn't take me that long to learn. A nation state can easily do it if they want. The US govt (NSA) has even devloped a reverse engineering tool and open sourced it.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    Sure, but the USSR just openly ran modified versions of OS/360. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM China certainly has the capability to do the same to all of Microsoft's products. It's not a fundamental part of software that China isn't bilking Microsoft blazenly, there's something deeper going on.
helloindia 7y ago
Perhaps Apple too. "Apple hasn’t provided any information on the matter and did not respond to requests for comment. But analysts said the most likely interpretation is that the company is giving Beijing access to its operating system source code in return for being able to continue to do business in China—arguably Apple’s most important market, but one that has been imperiled by regulatory obstacles" https://qz.com/332059/apple-is-reportedly-giving-the-chinese-government-access-to-its-devices-for-a-security-assessment/ https://qz.com/332059/apple-is-reportedly-giving-the-chinese...
- metildaa 7y ago
  Darwin is already open source, albeit Apple does a code dump every few years iirc: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)
  - Kostic 7y ago
    Darwin is just one piece of the puzzle. macOS is much more than it's kernel.
  - module0000 7y ago
    Darwin doesn't even remotely resemble MacOS. It's the kernel and open-sourced user-land components. It resembles(but is not at all) a very old FreeBSD-ish system if loaded.
    - hiram112 7y ago
      Just out of curiosity, what else if not the kernel would be interesting to copy from MacOS? I use a Mac but just don't have the inclination to learn about it under the hood (unlike Linux). Besides the various apps they include and the graphical / window system, I can think of LaunchD, drivers, but not much more that would be worth a lot to China.
      - insulanus 7y ago
        Good high-level mental mode, but it's not a clean separation like that. Think Open Source Android vs. Google's Android, or Chromium vs. Chrome. It's not just dragging and dropping some UI libraries on top. There's a ton of glue, and sticking shims into non-obvious places that make a lot of the magic happen.
      - floatboth 7y ago
        The Darwin kernel is worthless because any free Unix is better. The graphical stuff is the whole reason macOS exists.
microcolonel 7y ago
There's very little special sauce in an operating system; at least, it's hard to hide state of the art techniques in one. Bleeding-edge hardware is chock full of trade secrets which are hard to simply copy.

by mappu 7y ago

monocasa 7y ago

That seems like the same sort of difference between source available and free software. Seems like a minute difference from a cursory glance, but it turns out the graph of dependencies and derived works is more important than the the code itself.

steve19 7y ago
That and software can be easily decompiled. It's not that hard if you really want to know how something works. I learnt enough asm to modify a modern app that was essential to my work flow but had been abandoned by the developers. It didn't take me that long to learn. A nation state can easily do it if they want. The US govt (NSA) has even devloped a reverse engineering tool and open sourced it.
- monocasa 7y ago
  Sure, but the USSR just openly ran modified versions of OS/360. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM China certainly has the capability to do the same to all of Microsoft's products. It's not a fundamental part of software that China isn't bilking Microsoft blazenly, there's something deeper going on.

helloindia 7y ago

Perhaps Apple too. "Apple hasn’t provided any information on the matter and did not respond to requests for comment. But analysts said the most likely interpretation is that the company is giving Beijing access to its operating system source code in return for being able to continue to do business in China—arguably Apple’s most important market, but one that has been imperiled by regulatory obstacles" https://qz.com/332059/apple-is-reportedly-giving-the-chinese-government-access-to-its-devices-for-a-security-assessment/ https://qz.com/332059/apple-is-reportedly-giving-the-chinese...

metildaa 7y ago
Darwin is already open source, albeit Apple does a code dump every few years iirc: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)
- Kostic 7y ago
  Darwin is just one piece of the puzzle. macOS is much more than it's kernel.
- module0000 7y ago
  Darwin doesn't even remotely resemble MacOS. It's the kernel and open-sourced user-land components. It resembles(but is not at all) a very old FreeBSD-ish system if loaded.
  - hiram112 7y ago
    Just out of curiosity, what else if not the kernel would be interesting to copy from MacOS? I use a Mac but just don't have the inclination to learn about it under the hood (unlike Linux). Besides the various apps they include and the graphical / window system, I can think of LaunchD, drivers, but not much more that would be worth a lot to China.
    - insulanus 7y ago
      Good high-level mental mode, but it's not a clean separation like that. Think Open Source Android vs. Google's Android, or Chromium vs. Chrome. It's not just dragging and dropping some UI libraries on top. There's a ton of glue, and sticking shims into non-obvious places that make a lot of the magic happen.
    - floatboth 7y ago
      The Darwin kernel is worthless because any free Unix is better. The graphical stuff is the whole reason macOS exists.

microcolonel 7y ago

There's very little special sauce in an operating system; at least, it's hard to hide state of the art techniques in one. Bleeding-edge hardware is chock full of trade secrets which are hard to simply copy.