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If you show up with bags of money, ASML will sell to you. So yes, it's a major achievement and there's a lot of knowledge layered on top of that equipment, but

by ethbro 7y ago

If you show up with bags of money, ASML will sell to you. So yes, it's a major achievement and there's a lot of knowledge layered on top of that equipment, but it's not like they need to reinvent everything from scratch.

nickpsecurity 7y ago
They're worried about foreign influence and subversion. They know chip making is a critical activity underpinning all sorts of other activities. They want to build the tech it depends on themselves so it's in their control. Maybe backdoor-free, too.
11thEarlOfMar 7y ago
Bags of money? You need to bring the whole bank. Their state of the art machines sell for $125,000,000. Each. https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1257963# https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1257963#
- MauranKilom 7y ago
  That was ten years ago...
- ethbro 7y ago
  I think this is where the difference between state and private funding come in. Amazon's revenue is about USD$240b. For context, the US DoD SPENDS about USD$100b on research, development, test, and evaluation activities alone. So if a G20 government decides they want top of the line gear, they can afford it.
bogomipz 7y ago
Genuinely curious - equipment-wise how much beyond the photolithography gear that ASML will sell you do you need to set up a cutting edge fab? Or are the ASML offerings pretty much one-stop shopping?
- ethbro 7y ago
  As far as I know (and anyone in the field please correct me), ASML focuses on photolithography equipment. Which leaves where you put it, how you feed it, and how you validate the output. In a sense, it's kind of like a nuclear plant -- you can't not consider the site and physical structure as part of the operation. I wouldn't be surprised if those parts are the secret sauce for a lot of cutting edge fabs. How do you isolate your space while moving materials about? What do you clean, when, and how? We gave industrial engineers crap at my school, but for semiconductor fabrication the holistic approach seems necessary. (Would love to hear more details from someone)

by ethbro 7y ago

nickpsecurity 7y ago

They're worried about foreign influence and subversion. They know chip making is a critical activity underpinning all sorts of other activities. They want to build the tech it depends on themselves so it's in their control. Maybe backdoor-free, too.

11thEarlOfMar 7y ago

Bags of money? You need to bring the whole bank. Their state of the art machines sell for $125,000,000. Each. https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1257963# https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1257963#

MauranKilom 7y ago
That was ten years ago...
ethbro 7y ago
I think this is where the difference between state and private funding come in. Amazon's revenue is about USD$240b. For context, the US DoD SPENDS about USD$100b on research, development, test, and evaluation activities alone. So if a G20 government decides they want top of the line gear, they can afford it.

bogomipz 7y ago

Genuinely curious - equipment-wise how much beyond the photolithography gear that ASML will sell you do you need to set up a cutting edge fab? Or are the ASML offerings pretty much one-stop shopping?

ethbro 7y ago
As far as I know (and anyone in the field please correct me), ASML focuses on photolithography equipment. Which leaves where you put it, how you feed it, and how you validate the output. In a sense, it's kind of like a nuclear plant -- you can't not consider the site and physical structure as part of the operation. I wouldn't be surprised if those parts are the secret sauce for a lot of cutting edge fabs. How do you isolate your space while moving materials about? What do you clean, when, and how? We gave industrial engineers crap at my school, but for semiconductor fabrication the holistic approach seems necessary. (Would love to hear more details from someone)