5 ms·

>Either because a majority in some way stigmatize the work, or the pay is too low, etc. The 'pay is too low' bit always bothers me. It implies that we should

>Either because a majority in some way stigmatize the work, or the pay is too low, etc. The 'pay is too low' bit always bothers me. It implies that we should want to bring in a serf class to do work Americans won't. It's usually in conjunction with some non-white immigrant group, usually Hispanics, which makes it racist to boot. We must not accept arguments about not being able to find workers because the pay is too low. Raise the pay. The wealth and income gaps are bad enough, don't keep pushing down the median wages by bringing in more serf class workers who are willing to accept these wages.

40acres 7y ago
In general I agree with you, but I do believe that there are certain jobs that a majority of Americans simply will not consider. While there is definitely some xenophobic reasons behind this, I think the bulk of it can be explained in economics terms. The average American worker is pretty well educated compared to the rest of the world and has a much higher wage ceiling if they are willing to be selective. We do however need more wage growth in this economy and it's good to see the Fed coming to grips with this and retreating from further interest rate increases.
- thatcat 7y ago
  What jobs will Americans not consider at a reasonable pay rate?
  - chillwaves 7y ago
    "Reasonable rate" means what? Working in slaughterhouses, working in fields picking produce, working in construction, working the back of house for restaurants, working as housekeepers, working as landscapers or day laborers, working at the car wash. These are all jobs with lots of immigrants. Are you surprised to learn this?
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      What intrinsic property of immigrants do you believe makes them better suited to work grueling jobs at wages that white people won't accept?
      - chillwaves 7y ago
        They accept less pay for the same work. Did you not read my comment? I am having a hard time believing that you did not know this fact before our exchange.
    - thatcat 7y ago
      A reasonable rate means the market rate before you deflate it with cheap labor. I've personally worked 3 of those jobs so yea it's pretty surprising that everyone thinks americans are unwilling to do this stuff.
      - chillwaves 7y ago
        The market rate is already in effect.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
davidw 7y ago
Some of those people risk their lives trying to get here because it's such a huge improvement for them. The reality is that by letting people in, you are vastly improving their lot in life, and all the economic research show it doesn't really hurt anyone here: https://www.cato.org/blog/14-most-common-arguments-against-immigration-why-theyre-wrong https://www.cato.org/blog/14-most-common-arguments-against-i...
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  I'm okay with this as long as I NEVER hear about wage gap, wealth gap, or growing poverty in the US political discussion again. I never want to hear about increasing entitlements, food stamps, none of it. If we continue this policy, those outcomes are by design. This policy is a charity work for the poor of other countries, paid for by the suppressed wages of the American poor. As long as we can all agree that's the goal, or at least an accepted side effect, I'm willing to go along.
- prvc 7y ago
  It may be a good deal for the individual confronted with the binary choice, however, that does not change this phenomenon's essential reliance on the exploitation of the poverty of the developing world. The same dynamic is what enables sex tourism and exploitative natural resource extraction, and these are understood to be wrong for the aforementioned reason. Economic incentives cause the owning classes to overlook this in the case of the labor market, however. If there is a shortage of job applicants, raise the offered pay. This is the supposed way that 'free markets' are intended to function, but their putative proponents fight tooth and nail to prevent this from being necessary.
  - davidw 7y ago
    And...keeping people out is going to change that how?
jacobolus 7y ago
People raised as rural peasants have a lot more stamina for doing hard agricultural labor than people raised in suburbs without a manual-labor background. Making this observation isn’t “racist”. If immigration were blocked, just raising agricultural workers’ pay wouldn’t be enough to fill all of those jobs. But raising those jobs’ pay (e.g. by raising the federal minimum wage and enforcing it) would be a good idea anyway. Immigrant farm workers should still be paid fair wages.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  Stamina is the wrong word though. It's willingness or grit or something, not an innate physical characteristic that they picked up from rural poverty. Fun that your edit added "willing" while I was writing this.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    A lot of it is stamina. Both physical and mental. Rural peasants are really tough in a way that is extremely foreign to suburbanites. My godfather (indigenous peasant in rural Mexico) spent some time in his youth carrying two 50-pound bottles of liquor on his back all day long up and down mountains over a rough trail. I get winded if I try to carry one of those bottles for a block of flat sidewalk. If someone asked me to strap two to a tumpline and hike up a mountain I would call them crazy. He spent other years working on coffee plantations under thieving brutal racist owners. And continued working on his own small plots of land every day up to maybe age 70, even as his body was thoroughly worn out. Now his grandchildren are white-collar professionals. This kind of hard manual labor is as demanding as any high-level sport. It takes years of (mental and physical) training to be able to handle it without falling apart.
    - maxerickson 7y ago
      Do it as much as you can for month and see how far you get. I'm 39 and for the last 6 months I've been doing a job that involves lots of manual labor, it's gotten easier, not harder. I guess I was in relatively decent condition at the start though, if you consider the US average.

40acres 7y ago

In general I agree with you, but I do believe that there are certain jobs that a majority of Americans simply will not consider. While there is definitely some xenophobic reasons behind this, I think the bulk of it can be explained in economics terms. The average American worker is pretty well educated compared to the rest of the world and has a much higher wage ceiling if they are willing to be selective. We do however need more wage growth in this economy and it's good to see the Fed coming to grips with this and retreating from further interest rate increases.

thatcat 7y ago
What jobs will Americans not consider at a reasonable pay rate?
- chillwaves 7y ago
  "Reasonable rate" means what? Working in slaughterhouses, working in fields picking produce, working in construction, working the back of house for restaurants, working as housekeepers, working as landscapers or day laborers, working at the car wash. These are all jobs with lots of immigrants. Are you surprised to learn this?
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    What intrinsic property of immigrants do you believe makes them better suited to work grueling jobs at wages that white people won't accept?
    - chillwaves 7y ago
      They accept less pay for the same work. Did you not read my comment? I am having a hard time believing that you did not know this fact before our exchange.
  - thatcat 7y ago
    A reasonable rate means the market rate before you deflate it with cheap labor. I've personally worked 3 of those jobs so yea it's pretty surprising that everyone thinks americans are unwilling to do this stuff.
    - chillwaves 7y ago
      The market rate is already in effect.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

davidw 7y ago

Some of those people risk their lives trying to get here because it's such a huge improvement for them. The reality is that by letting people in, you are vastly improving their lot in life, and all the economic research show it doesn't really hurt anyone here: https://www.cato.org/blog/14-most-common-arguments-against-immigration-why-theyre-wrong https://www.cato.org/blog/14-most-common-arguments-against-i...

Consultant32452 7y ago
I'm okay with this as long as I NEVER hear about wage gap, wealth gap, or growing poverty in the US political discussion again. I never want to hear about increasing entitlements, food stamps, none of it. If we continue this policy, those outcomes are by design. This policy is a charity work for the poor of other countries, paid for by the suppressed wages of the American poor. As long as we can all agree that's the goal, or at least an accepted side effect, I'm willing to go along.
prvc 7y ago
It may be a good deal for the individual confronted with the binary choice, however, that does not change this phenomenon's essential reliance on the exploitation of the poverty of the developing world. The same dynamic is what enables sex tourism and exploitative natural resource extraction, and these are understood to be wrong for the aforementioned reason. Economic incentives cause the owning classes to overlook this in the case of the labor market, however. If there is a shortage of job applicants, raise the offered pay. This is the supposed way that 'free markets' are intended to function, but their putative proponents fight tooth and nail to prevent this from being necessary.
- davidw 7y ago
  And...keeping people out is going to change that how?

jacobolus 7y ago

People raised as rural peasants have a lot more stamina for doing hard agricultural labor than people raised in suburbs without a manual-labor background. Making this observation isn’t “racist”. If immigration were blocked, just raising agricultural workers’ pay wouldn’t be enough to fill all of those jobs. But raising those jobs’ pay (e.g. by raising the federal minimum wage and enforcing it) would be a good idea anyway. Immigrant farm workers should still be paid fair wages.

maxerickson 7y ago
Stamina is the wrong word though. It's willingness or grit or something, not an innate physical characteristic that they picked up from rural poverty. Fun that your edit added "willing" while I was writing this.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  A lot of it is stamina. Both physical and mental. Rural peasants are really tough in a way that is extremely foreign to suburbanites. My godfather (indigenous peasant in rural Mexico) spent some time in his youth carrying two 50-pound bottles of liquor on his back all day long up and down mountains over a rough trail. I get winded if I try to carry one of those bottles for a block of flat sidewalk. If someone asked me to strap two to a tumpline and hike up a mountain I would call them crazy. He spent other years working on coffee plantations under thieving brutal racist owners. And continued working on his own small plots of land every day up to maybe age 70, even as his body was thoroughly worn out. Now his grandchildren are white-collar professionals. This kind of hard manual labor is as demanding as any high-level sport. It takes years of (mental and physical) training to be able to handle it without falling apart.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    Do it as much as you can for month and see how far you get. I'm 39 and for the last 6 months I've been doing a job that involves lots of manual labor, it's gotten easier, not harder. I guess I was in relatively decent condition at the start though, if you consider the US average.