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We’re Updating Our Terms of Service to Better Explain How Facebook Works

50 points by tareqak 7y ago

aphextim 7y ago
FTFY Here’s a summary of the information we’ve added to our terms: How we profit off your personal information: We include more details on how we make money, including a new introduction explaining that we don’t charge you money because you are the product. Censorship: We provide more information about what happens when we remove content that violates our personal views. Profiting off your IP: We clarify that when you share your own content — like photos and videos — you continue to own the intellectual property rights in that content. You grant us permission to do things like display that content or use it in advertising without any remuneration, and that permission ends when the content is deleted from Facebook. This is how many online services work so regardless of morality. What happens when you delete: We’re providing more detail about what happens when you delete content you’ve shared. For example, when you delete something you’ve posted, it’s no longer visible but it can take up to 90 days to be removed from our systems. We cannot guarantee that what you posted has not been backed up on another system or that other companies are compelled to stop using your information once removed from our database.
- radcon 7y ago
  You can just use > to indicate a quote. It doesn't add any formatting but everyone knows what it means on HN. Using 4 spaces turns it into a code block and makes it much more difficult to read since paragraphs have no line breaks -- they end up running off the screen and require horizontal scrolling.
nvusuvu 7y ago
FTFY Here’s a summary of the information we’ve added to our terms: > How we profit off your personal information: We include more details on how we make money, including a new introduction explaining that we don’t charge you money because you are the product. > Censorship: We provide more information about what happens when we remove content that violates our personal views. > Profiting off your IP: We clarify that when you share your own content — like photos and videos — you continue to own the intellectual property rights in that content. You grant us permission to do things like display that content or use it in advertising without any remuneration, and that permission ends when the content is deleted from Facebook. This is how many online services work so regardless of morality. > What happens when you delete: We’re providing more detail about what happens when you delete content you’ve shared. For example, when you delete something you’ve posted, it’s no longer visible but it can take up to 90 days to be removed from our systems. We cannot guarantee that what you posted has not been backed up on another system or that other companies are compelled to stop using your information once removed from our database.
- jeffbarg 7y ago
  Wow, that last one is surprising. I understand that it can be a hard problem to fully delete data if you haven't built systems with that in mind from the start, but isn't that (not deleting backups) a flagrant violation of GDPR regulations?
  - WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
    As a data processor, this is probably a violation. Question is, who will bring the hammer down.
    - ahje 7y ago
      Not really. Having reliable backups is 1) a legitimate interest for the data processor, and 2) possibly a part of the service in question (that's more generic and not really tied to Facebook). The data processor needs to make sure old backups are deleted in a timely fashion, and also need to make sure that data that has been deleted will be deleted again, should the need to restore the data arise.
      - smueller1234 7y ago
        Ironically, the gdpr also attempts to protect you from "accidental data destruction" (what folks would usually call data loss in storage, though the gdpr uses the expression for 'lost a USB drive the somebody else can find'). This means that if nothing else, gdpr makes it legitimate business interest (compliance) to have IMMUTABLE backups.
      - anonymousDan 7y ago
        Store the backups encrypted under a separate key for each user, and then throw away the user's key.
        Someone 7y ago
        In facebook’s case, that means both backup and restore processes must have access to over a billion encryption keys. Doable? Maybe, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that made it impossible to make backups in a reasonable time frame. And even that isn’t enough for the case where a user deletes part of their data.
enzanki_ars 7y ago
For those that do not want to visit Facebook, but still see the unedited version of the changes that Facebook has made, in their words: > Here’s a summary of the information we’ve added to our terms: > How we make money: We include more details on how we make money, including a new introduction explaining that we don’t charge you money to use our products because businesses and organizations pay us to show you ads. > Content removals: We provide more information about what happens when we remove content that violates our terms or policies. > Your intellectual property rights: We clarify that when you share your own content — like photos and videos — you continue to own the intellectual property rights in that content. You grant us permission to do things like display that content, and that permission ends when the content is deleted from Facebook. This is how many online services work and has always been the case on Facebook. > What happens when you delete: We’re providing more detail about what happens when you delete content you’ve shared. For example, when you delete something you’ve posted, it’s no longer visible but it can take up to 90 days to be removed from our systems.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  What happens when you delete muddies the IP clause.
  - NowThenGoodBad 7y ago
    Do you say that because they might still use your posted material? Or is there some other reason?
ballenf 7y ago
Saying “The updates do not change any of our commitments or policies” while rewriting a contract is just a contradiction. It’s literally impossible to rewrite a contract and claim that its meaning or interpretation hasn’t changed. The way a legal term is phrased is hugely important especially when there is ambiguity. I understand FB’s intent here and I don’t think the line is meant to deceive. For example, adding terms to the agreement that make the user’s acceptance of how they are monetized conditioned on usage (which has always been required but is now explicit) may have big ramifications for anyone wanting to sue FB for fraud or the like. Easy to understand terms are a good thing, but I think it would be better to say something like “we have attempted to capture the same meaning of the prior policy while using easier to understand language” or the like would have been more accurate.
- a1369209993 7y ago
  > Saying "The updates do not change any of our commitments or policies" while rewriting a contract is just a contradiction. To be scrupulously fair, that could well be interpreted as "We were already committed, as a matter of policy and/or applicable law[0], to upholding these additional terms not mentioned in the previous contract, and all we're doing now is formally documenting something we were already doing.", but that would require assuming good faith on the part of Facebook of all entities, so no. 0: eg adding "We guarrantee we will provide a replacement [widget] if the one you ordered arrives damaged." in a jurisdiction where that's legally required anyway.
annadane 7y ago
Good. Thank you. I legitimately appreciate this. Honesty is all anyone asked for.
Aromasin 7y ago
I highly recommend checking out Mark Zuckerburg's new podcast "Tech & Society". He's discusses in length the approach they're looking to take at Facebook. It's genuinely a really entertaining listen. Obviously don't take everything of what he says at face value and realise that it is without a doubt a public face, but the topics he's approached and guests he's had on to debate him have been fantastic and engaging thus far (including: Jonathan Zittrain, a specialist in tech law from Harvard; Mathias Dopfner, the CEO of Europe's largest news publisher; Yuval Noah Harari, the author of Sapiens, Homo Deus, etc; and Jenny Martinez, the dean of Stanford Law). It's made me see him in a much different light then that of his uncomfortable public speaker persona.
- chillacy 7y ago
  Like most introverts there’s a lot of substance that comes out over an hour of conversation, not a 10 second sound byte. Mass media has always optimized for the latter but podcasts are starting to build up the former.

50 points by tareqak 7y ago

FTFY Here’s a summary of the information we’ve added to our terms: How we profit off your personal information: We include more details on how we make money, including a new introduction explaining that we don’t charge you money because you are the product. Censorship: We provide more information about what happens when we remove content that violates our personal views. Profiting off your IP: We clarify that when you share your own content — like photos and videos — you continue to own the intellectual property rights in that content. You grant us permission to do things like display that content or use it in advertising without any remuneration, and that permission ends when the content is deleted from Facebook. This is how many online services work so regardless of morality. What happens when you delete: We’re providing more detail about what happens when you delete content you’ve shared. For example, when you delete something you’ve posted, it’s no longer visible but it can take up to 90 days to be removed from our systems. We cannot guarantee that what you posted has not been backed up on another system or that other companies are compelled to stop using your information once removed from our database.

radcon 7y ago
You can just use > to indicate a quote. It doesn't add any formatting but everyone knows what it means on HN. Using 4 spaces turns it into a code block and makes it much more difficult to read since paragraphs have no line breaks -- they end up running off the screen and require horizontal scrolling.

nvusuvu 7y ago

FTFY Here’s a summary of the information we’ve added to our terms: > How we profit off your personal information: We include more details on how we make money, including a new introduction explaining that we don’t charge you money because you are the product. > Censorship: We provide more information about what happens when we remove content that violates our personal views. > Profiting off your IP: We clarify that when you share your own content — like photos and videos — you continue to own the intellectual property rights in that content. You grant us permission to do things like display that content or use it in advertising without any remuneration, and that permission ends when the content is deleted from Facebook. This is how many online services work so regardless of morality. > What happens when you delete: We’re providing more detail about what happens when you delete content you’ve shared. For example, when you delete something you’ve posted, it’s no longer visible but it can take up to 90 days to be removed from our systems. We cannot guarantee that what you posted has not been backed up on another system or that other companies are compelled to stop using your information once removed from our database.

jeffbarg 7y ago
Wow, that last one is surprising. I understand that it can be a hard problem to fully delete data if you haven't built systems with that in mind from the start, but isn't that (not deleting backups) a flagrant violation of GDPR regulations?
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
  As a data processor, this is probably a violation. Question is, who will bring the hammer down.
  - ahje 7y ago
    Not really. Having reliable backups is 1) a legitimate interest for the data processor, and 2) possibly a part of the service in question (that's more generic and not really tied to Facebook). The data processor needs to make sure old backups are deleted in a timely fashion, and also need to make sure that data that has been deleted will be deleted again, should the need to restore the data arise.
    - smueller1234 7y ago
      Ironically, the gdpr also attempts to protect you from "accidental data destruction" (what folks would usually call data loss in storage, though the gdpr uses the expression for 'lost a USB drive the somebody else can find'). This means that if nothing else, gdpr makes it legitimate business interest (compliance) to have IMMUTABLE backups.
    - anonymousDan 7y ago
      Store the backups encrypted under a separate key for each user, and then throw away the user's key.
      - Someone 7y ago
        In facebook’s case, that means both backup and restore processes must have access to over a billion encryption keys. Doable? Maybe, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that made it impossible to make backups in a reasonable time frame. And even that isn’t enough for the case where a user deletes part of their data.

enzanki_ars 7y ago

For those that do not want to visit Facebook, but still see the unedited version of the changes that Facebook has made, in their words: > Here’s a summary of the information we’ve added to our terms: > How we make money: We include more details on how we make money, including a new introduction explaining that we don’t charge you money to use our products because businesses and organizations pay us to show you ads. > Content removals: We provide more information about what happens when we remove content that violates our terms or policies. > Your intellectual property rights: We clarify that when you share your own content — like photos and videos — you continue to own the intellectual property rights in that content. You grant us permission to do things like display that content, and that permission ends when the content is deleted from Facebook. This is how many online services work and has always been the case on Facebook. > What happens when you delete: We’re providing more detail about what happens when you delete content you’ve shared. For example, when you delete something you’ve posted, it’s no longer visible but it can take up to 90 days to be removed from our systems.

dillonmckay 7y ago
What happens when you delete muddies the IP clause.
- NowThenGoodBad 7y ago
  Do you say that because they might still use your posted material? Or is there some other reason?

ballenf 7y ago

Saying “The updates do not change any of our commitments or policies” while rewriting a contract is just a contradiction. It’s literally impossible to rewrite a contract and claim that its meaning or interpretation hasn’t changed. The way a legal term is phrased is hugely important especially when there is ambiguity. I understand FB’s intent here and I don’t think the line is meant to deceive. For example, adding terms to the agreement that make the user’s acceptance of how they are monetized conditioned on usage (which has always been required but is now explicit) may have big ramifications for anyone wanting to sue FB for fraud or the like. Easy to understand terms are a good thing, but I think it would be better to say something like “we have attempted to capture the same meaning of the prior policy while using easier to understand language” or the like would have been more accurate.

a1369209993 7y ago
> Saying "The updates do not change any of our commitments or policies" while rewriting a contract is just a contradiction. To be scrupulously fair, that could well be interpreted as "We were already committed, as a matter of policy and/or applicable law[0], to upholding these additional terms not mentioned in the previous contract, and all we're doing now is formally documenting something we were already doing.", but that would require assuming good faith on the part of Facebook of all entities, so no. 0: eg adding "We guarrantee we will provide a replacement [widget] if the one you ordered arrives damaged." in a jurisdiction where that's legally required anyway.

annadane 7y ago

Good. Thank you. I legitimately appreciate this. Honesty is all anyone asked for.

Aromasin 7y ago

I highly recommend checking out Mark Zuckerburg's new podcast "Tech & Society". He's discusses in length the approach they're looking to take at Facebook. It's genuinely a really entertaining listen. Obviously don't take everything of what he says at face value and realise that it is without a doubt a public face, but the topics he's approached and guests he's had on to debate him have been fantastic and engaging thus far (including: Jonathan Zittrain, a specialist in tech law from Harvard; Mathias Dopfner, the CEO of Europe's largest news publisher; Yuval Noah Harari, the author of Sapiens, Homo Deus, etc; and Jenny Martinez, the dean of Stanford Law). It's made me see him in a much different light then that of his uncomfortable public speaker persona.

chillacy 7y ago
Like most introverts there’s a lot of substance that comes out over an hour of conversation, not a 10 second sound byte. Mass media has always optimized for the latter but podcasts are starting to build up the former.