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What happens in the Utopian future of fully autonomous cars (level 5) which heavily rely on GPS for route mapping and positioning? Isn't the dream to be able t

by Alupis 7y ago

What happens in the Utopian future of fully autonomous cars (level 5) which heavily rely on GPS for route mapping and positioning? Isn't the dream to be able to sit in the back seat and read a book or take a nap? The human occupant might not be aware anything's wrong until the vehicle is running out of battery or gas, or gets stuck in the sand (from the parent's experience). There's a pass through the mountains near me that gets shut down during the winter due to snow every year. I go up there usually but don't need to go all the way through - and was surprised this year to see an official CalTrans sign saying: "Your GPS is lying to you! The pass is closed! Turn back!" I suppose enough people every year ignore the road closure signs and continue all the way until they get stuck... how would an autonomous vehicle know any better either?

Mountain_Skies 7y ago
Hopefully the state DOT will have a way of communicating with self driving vehicles directly without needing to go through a company like google first.
- behringer 7y ago
  I think that largely depends on who's in power over the next decade or two.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  A government agency with good technology? lol
bdamm 7y ago
Definitely this will be a failure case. Another failure will be "loops" where the car ends up driving the same few miles repeatedly - I've seen this failure mode in Google Maps as well. However, the navigator and the driver are separate components, so even if the navigator says to drive off the gaping hole in the bridge, the driver will hopefully recognize the fault and bring the car safely to a stop. But definitely we will see the "German family dies in death valley due to navigator failure" headline.
- bongobongo 7y ago
  If the argument is that it's OK because the driver will be there to stop the car from doing something fatally stupid, then that sort of defeats the purpose of not driving the car yourself; this isn't a "self-driving" car, it's glorified cruise control.
  - LyndsySimon 7y ago
    I think the parent was referring to the automated system driving the car as the “driver”, not a human.
- derekp7 7y ago
  Is there any way to report corrections to Google maps? On more than one occasion, I've had a route that called for a left turn at a traffic light, try to route me into a right turn and an immediate (illegal) u-turn. In another case, my route would have logically had me cross a road (again at a traffic light), however Google maps wanted me to turn either right or left, drive for a few miles, turn into a subdivision to turn around and retrace the route, and then finally continue on the original road. Not to mention that it always wants me to cut across my backyard to get to a road running behind my house, instead of backing out of my driveway onto the road I live on. It isn't that I can't easily solve these problems if I'm looking at the map, but since it is incapable of having me make a left turn it will often plot an "optimal" route that is 15 minutes longer than it should be, because the real optimal route looks like it takes longer due to the routing error. Not to mention that it often confuses delivery drivers. Note, that the incorrect route typically comes from the Android version of Google maps, but if I go on the web interface the route will be ok.
  - JetSpiegel 7y ago
    > Is there any way to report corrections to Google maps? Sell all your property, move to India and get a job on their equivalent version of Mechanical Turk. Or you can install OsmAnd and use the OSM dataset, which is not as comprehensive, but it doesn't many lies. At most, outdated data.
joshuak 7y ago
It is unlikely that fully autonomous cars will uese any GPS at all. All evidence is that the market will be dominated almost entirely by Tesla. In April Tesla presented[1] their state of the art in autonomous car vehicle design. Elon repeatedly emphasized that GPS was inadequate and systems relying on it will fail. The Tesla full self-driving computer, already currently installed in nearly all Tesla vehicles, does not use GPS data to compute the driving solution. P.S: Keep in mind that GPS is a positioning system, not a navigation system. Navigation comes from the mapping data used by GPS devices, and as for that autonomous vehicles needn't rely on the low quality map data from Google Maps other any other provider. A massive fleet of Tesla vehicles are providing constant validation of navigable routes right now. (edit: updated link time to a couple of particularly relevant questions and answers in the same video) [1]: https://youtu.be/Ucp0TTmvqOE?t=9526 https://youtu.be/Ucp0TTmvqOE?t=9526
- mikeash 7y ago
  They won’t use GPS to figure out which lane they’re in or to know how much to steer in order to take the next curve. They’ll still use GPS to determine which roads to take.
  - joshuak 7y ago
    No they will not, or at least it won't be the primary source for positioning. They will use mapping data, and that is not a problem because the mapping data they have comes from their fleet of cars on the road which upload that data daily. If any car encounters an incorrectly mapped route all cars will know it. And I expect you will not be able to create an autonomous route that a Tesla car has not already successfully traveled. The problem of reporting issues to Google Maps is removed.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      I’m highly skeptical of this. Local info will probably be used to refine things, but GPS and maps are still going to be the primary inputs driving things like “which exit do I take?” Since you mentioned Tesla’s current systems, note that this is how they work now. Lane keeping is entirely local, but decisions about which lane to be in or which exit to take to reach your destination are done with your GPS position.
crooked-v 7y ago
The short story "Car Wars" digs at this kind of issue. https://this.deakin.edu.au/self-improvement/car-wars https://this.deakin.edu.au/self-improvement/car-wars
almost_usual 7y ago
Simple, we only allow autonomous vehicles to have 40 inch tires, a winch, front and rear lockers, and giant battery. Good to go through Rubicon! But seriously this is a pretty dangerous situation, especially in the snowy mountains. I remember reading an article about a Tesla engineer getting stuck on a trail in the Sierra's and his Jeep eventually being buried in 10+ ft of snow. Edit: Found the article https://jalopnik.com/a-tesla-engineers-jeep-ended-up-under-10-feet-of-snow-f-1835036855 https://jalopnik.com/a-tesla-engineers-jeep-ended-up-under-1...
fluffything 7y ago
> What happens in the Utopian future of fully autonomous cars (level 5) which heavily rely on GPS for route mapping and positioning? Those won't use Google Maps.

by Alupis 7y ago

Mountain_Skies 7y ago

Hopefully the state DOT will have a way of communicating with self driving vehicles directly without needing to go through a company like google first.

behringer 7y ago
I think that largely depends on who's in power over the next decade or two.
hanniabu 7y ago
A government agency with good technology? lol

bdamm 7y ago

Definitely this will be a failure case. Another failure will be "loops" where the car ends up driving the same few miles repeatedly - I've seen this failure mode in Google Maps as well. However, the navigator and the driver are separate components, so even if the navigator says to drive off the gaping hole in the bridge, the driver will hopefully recognize the fault and bring the car safely to a stop. But definitely we will see the "German family dies in death valley due to navigator failure" headline.

bongobongo 7y ago
If the argument is that it's OK because the driver will be there to stop the car from doing something fatally stupid, then that sort of defeats the purpose of not driving the car yourself; this isn't a "self-driving" car, it's glorified cruise control.
- LyndsySimon 7y ago
  I think the parent was referring to the automated system driving the car as the “driver”, not a human.
derekp7 7y ago
Is there any way to report corrections to Google maps? On more than one occasion, I've had a route that called for a left turn at a traffic light, try to route me into a right turn and an immediate (illegal) u-turn. In another case, my route would have logically had me cross a road (again at a traffic light), however Google maps wanted me to turn either right or left, drive for a few miles, turn into a subdivision to turn around and retrace the route, and then finally continue on the original road. Not to mention that it always wants me to cut across my backyard to get to a road running behind my house, instead of backing out of my driveway onto the road I live on. It isn't that I can't easily solve these problems if I'm looking at the map, but since it is incapable of having me make a left turn it will often plot an "optimal" route that is 15 minutes longer than it should be, because the real optimal route looks like it takes longer due to the routing error. Not to mention that it often confuses delivery drivers. Note, that the incorrect route typically comes from the Android version of Google maps, but if I go on the web interface the route will be ok.
- JetSpiegel 7y ago
  > Is there any way to report corrections to Google maps? Sell all your property, move to India and get a job on their equivalent version of Mechanical Turk. Or you can install OsmAnd and use the OSM dataset, which is not as comprehensive, but it doesn't many lies. At most, outdated data.

joshuak 7y ago

It is unlikely that fully autonomous cars will uese any GPS at all. All evidence is that the market will be dominated almost entirely by Tesla. In April Tesla presented[1] their state of the art in autonomous car vehicle design. Elon repeatedly emphasized that GPS was inadequate and systems relying on it will fail. The Tesla full self-driving computer, already currently installed in nearly all Tesla vehicles, does not use GPS data to compute the driving solution. P.S: Keep in mind that GPS is a positioning system, not a navigation system. Navigation comes from the mapping data used by GPS devices, and as for that autonomous vehicles needn't rely on the low quality map data from Google Maps other any other provider. A massive fleet of Tesla vehicles are providing constant validation of navigable routes right now. (edit: updated link time to a couple of particularly relevant questions and answers in the same video) [1]: https://youtu.be/Ucp0TTmvqOE?t=9526 https://youtu.be/Ucp0TTmvqOE?t=9526

mikeash 7y ago
They won’t use GPS to figure out which lane they’re in or to know how much to steer in order to take the next curve. They’ll still use GPS to determine which roads to take.
- joshuak 7y ago
  No they will not, or at least it won't be the primary source for positioning. They will use mapping data, and that is not a problem because the mapping data they have comes from their fleet of cars on the road which upload that data daily. If any car encounters an incorrectly mapped route all cars will know it. And I expect you will not be able to create an autonomous route that a Tesla car has not already successfully traveled. The problem of reporting issues to Google Maps is removed.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    I’m highly skeptical of this. Local info will probably be used to refine things, but GPS and maps are still going to be the primary inputs driving things like “which exit do I take?” Since you mentioned Tesla’s current systems, note that this is how they work now. Lane keeping is entirely local, but decisions about which lane to be in or which exit to take to reach your destination are done with your GPS position.

crooked-v 7y ago

The short story "Car Wars" digs at this kind of issue. https://this.deakin.edu.au/self-improvement/car-wars https://this.deakin.edu.au/self-improvement/car-wars

almost_usual 7y ago

Simple, we only allow autonomous vehicles to have 40 inch tires, a winch, front and rear lockers, and giant battery. Good to go through Rubicon! But seriously this is a pretty dangerous situation, especially in the snowy mountains. I remember reading an article about a Tesla engineer getting stuck on a trail in the Sierra's and his Jeep eventually being buried in 10+ ft of snow. Edit: Found the article https://jalopnik.com/a-tesla-engineers-jeep-ended-up-under-10-feet-of-snow-f-1835036855 https://jalopnik.com/a-tesla-engineers-jeep-ended-up-under-1...

fluffything 7y ago

> What happens in the Utopian future of fully autonomous cars (level 5) which heavily rely on GPS for route mapping and positioning? Those won't use Google Maps.