5 ms·

'Today, Hong Kong; Tomorrow, Taiwan:' Resistance to China Spreads

107 points by lawrenceyan 7y ago

taiwanboy 7y ago
Tech/media related issue here is that 1.) There are many media companies in Taiwan that have taken subsidies/investments from the Chinese government. For example, the richest Taiwanese, Tsai eng-meng, currently lives in Shanghai, and owns many tv stations and newspapers in Taiwan. Many of these tv stations are watched by the older generations, and a lot of the channels are politics focused. Thus these channels usually have a pro-China angle on them: how well China is doing economically, and ignores any sort of xinjiang/Hong Kong/trade war problems/economic slowdowns/human rights issues China has. I shuddered when an older relative told me that the tv show had told him that concentration camps for Uighurs are ok because it keeps the peace. And don’t think this is restricted to Taiwan. China has spread its media influence to other democratic countries in the world as well. 2.) hacking politicians. The pro-China presidential candidate, Han-Kuo-yu, was a literal unknown 6 months before the election for city of kaoshung. However, thanks to a (purported) digital influence campaign by Chinese hackers, he won the election. Then he declared to run for president, without having accomplished much of anything for the city. This sort of thing could also happen to US, in that China could interfere in the 2020 election.
- supertiger 7y ago
  how arrogant do you have to be to attribute Han's success to Chinese hackers?
  - taiwanboy 7y ago
    Careful there with the personal attack. I put purported there for a reason. Han promised riches for citizens of kaoshung, went to visit China right after the election, and yet haven’t done a single thing yet to improve the city, before running for president.
    - cttet 7y ago
      This is not a valid argument to support your speculations though. With the same logic, almost every politician is questionable.
      - tempguy9999 7y ago
        > This is not a valid argument to support your speculations though This was not speculation, it was a claim. Though I'd agree he did not provide links to support his claim. > With the same logic, almost every politician is questionable True, if every politician was indeed "a literal unknown 6 months before the election". But at least in the west this is rather unusual, so I can't accept your claim.
        cttet 7y ago
        I was replying to the previous comment and refer to the exact comment. The previous comment did not mention this, instead, it is "Han promised riches for citizens of kaoshung, went to visit China right after the election, and yet haven’t done a single thing yet to improve the city, before running for president.". What I was saying is that this is not a valid argument.
- thevagrant 7y ago
  Regarding your point 1.) Where I live in New Zealand, the largest newspaper/website (NZ Herald) has a Chinese language version. It was shown that the Chinese version of the news articles are sanitised to be more China friendly. Articles critical of China are also often not featured at all in the Chinese version of the website. The Herald always states this is a coincidence and is due to a 'lack of resource' for the Chinese version of the publication but it's clear foreign investment is manipulating the news/media locally. (A rival news agency recently showed some of the writers had been to China on paid trips for 'media conferences' which appear to set the agenda on what to publish etc)
tempguy9999 7y ago
Something something golden goose. I understand that HK is an asset and I presume china wishes to keep it an asset but they must, at some level anyway, realise that they will choke it if they grab it, but grab it apparently they must. ISTM china can either have some of what it wants, or try for all and eventually get none, and they seem to be heading for the latter. I don't understand the thinking. So can anyone enlighten me as to the economic and political theory behind it? Edit: I may be plain wrong and they genuinely can have it all, I just don't see how.
- pertymcpert 7y ago
  HK economically is not significant to China. It wants to control it for ideological reasons. If it destroys the economy, that's a price it will be willing to pay.
  - Schnitz 7y ago
    What they are really scared about is that Hong Kong and Taiwan demonstrate that other systems than an authoritarian one party dictatorship can work well in a "Chinese" society. The mainland party line is that democracy wouldn't work for "Chinese" because whatever culture thousands years of history blah blah bs and that sounds a bit stupid if there are flourishing democracies in HK and TW. It's all about keeping the lid on the mainland.
    - rshawshaw 7y ago
      China cares about Unity. American coins are minted with a Latin saying "e pluribus unum", which means "Out of many, one". It's a reminder that there were 13 colonies that united to become one. Hence the name the "United States of America". China and America are alike in that they value unity. The difference is that America has never lost a territory whereas China lost two: Taiwan to Japan and Hong Kong to Britain. In the process the people in Taiwan and Hong Kong who valued Chinese culture were killed by the Japanese and British and the ones who remain went along with the new regime to survive. China is trying to reclaim their land and people. But unlike the Japanese and British, they don't want to reclaim it with force/violence because the people of Taiwan and Hong Kong are Chinese. Instead they are looking for a more agreeable path towards re-integration. But honestly, it would be easier to do what Japan did to Taiwan b/c then the protests would end quickly and all you'd be left with are people who are outwardly compliant. It's a tricky situation and the western world is really playing it up to make China look like the bad guy while ignoring how Taiwan and HK were taken over to begin with. Reminds me of how foreign powers split up Korea and Vietnam into North and South. After dividing these countries up they became weak. Hence the importance of unity. China doesn't want to make the same mistake.
_cs2017_ 7y ago
I expected the Beijing government would (a) continuously improve its image in Hong Kong, and (b) monitor HK public opinion to ensure they don't push its agenda to the point where it would risk instability. How in the world did they mess up so badly? It looks like a completely unforced error: prior to the extradition proposal, there was no social unrest, and barely any political activism. The time was on the Beijing side. It seems that someone is terrible at their job. If I was Xi, I would fire Carrie Lam, and appoint someone more capable in her place. Someone who can understand and relate to the public, who can earn the respect of the population, who recognizes the long term interests of Beijing and yet knows how to trade them off against the need for stability. I know it's easy to criticize, but I think it's reasonable to have high expectations from HK Chief Executive. And it's very sad to watch a great city threatened by the leader's incompetence.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  One of the problems with power is that the more power you have, the less truth you hear. Xi has grabbed total control of power in China, and one of the results is that people almost certainly tell him what they think he wants to hear, rather than what he needs to hear.
  - _cs2017_ 7y ago
    If that's the case, hopefully, he can learn from the clear screwups like this that his team fails at keeping him informed. And hopefully he can still find people who can do more than flatter and kowtow, and get them to advise him. I do think though that things are not as bad as in ancient China. I think people are trying to inform him, they are just not very good at it.
    - kenneth 7y ago
      So you want him to succeed?
      - rshawshaw 7y ago
WomanCanCode 7y ago
This fight in Hong Kong is larger than just fighting over democracy. It's about preserving traditional Chinese culture and the Cantonese language. Who wants to be forcefully extradite and sent to camps to be re-educated about what the party believe is the correct value system?
- rshawshaw 7y ago
  If this protest was about preserving traditional Chinese Culture and the Cantonese language, they would be pro-China and not Pro-British Hong Kong. Last I checked English was one of the nationally recognized languages, which is NOT a part of the traditional Chinese culture. Also there seems to be an exaggerated fear about who would be extradited. But based on the response, maybe a lot of the people in Hong Kong have something to hide.

107 points by lawrenceyan 7y ago

Tech/media related issue here is that 1.) There are many media companies in Taiwan that have taken subsidies/investments from the Chinese government. For example, the richest Taiwanese, Tsai eng-meng, currently lives in Shanghai, and owns many tv stations and newspapers in Taiwan. Many of these tv stations are watched by the older generations, and a lot of the channels are politics focused. Thus these channels usually have a pro-China angle on them: how well China is doing economically, and ignores any sort of xinjiang/Hong Kong/trade war problems/economic slowdowns/human rights issues China has. I shuddered when an older relative told me that the tv show had told him that concentration camps for Uighurs are ok because it keeps the peace. And don’t think this is restricted to Taiwan. China has spread its media influence to other democratic countries in the world as well. 2.) hacking politicians. The pro-China presidential candidate, Han-Kuo-yu, was a literal unknown 6 months before the election for city of kaoshung. However, thanks to a (purported) digital influence campaign by Chinese hackers, he won the election. Then he declared to run for president, without having accomplished much of anything for the city. This sort of thing could also happen to US, in that China could interfere in the 2020 election.

supertiger 7y ago
how arrogant do you have to be to attribute Han's success to Chinese hackers?
- taiwanboy 7y ago
  Careful there with the personal attack. I put purported there for a reason. Han promised riches for citizens of kaoshung, went to visit China right after the election, and yet haven’t done a single thing yet to improve the city, before running for president.
  - cttet 7y ago
    This is not a valid argument to support your speculations though. With the same logic, almost every politician is questionable.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      > This is not a valid argument to support your speculations though This was not speculation, it was a claim. Though I'd agree he did not provide links to support his claim. > With the same logic, almost every politician is questionable True, if every politician was indeed "a literal unknown 6 months before the election". But at least in the west this is rather unusual, so I can't accept your claim.
      - cttet 7y ago
        I was replying to the previous comment and refer to the exact comment. The previous comment did not mention this, instead, it is "Han promised riches for citizens of kaoshung, went to visit China right after the election, and yet haven’t done a single thing yet to improve the city, before running for president.". What I was saying is that this is not a valid argument.
thevagrant 7y ago
Regarding your point 1.) Where I live in New Zealand, the largest newspaper/website (NZ Herald) has a Chinese language version. It was shown that the Chinese version of the news articles are sanitised to be more China friendly. Articles critical of China are also often not featured at all in the Chinese version of the website. The Herald always states this is a coincidence and is due to a 'lack of resource' for the Chinese version of the publication but it's clear foreign investment is manipulating the news/media locally. (A rival news agency recently showed some of the writers had been to China on paid trips for 'media conferences' which appear to set the agenda on what to publish etc)

tempguy9999 7y ago

Something something golden goose. I understand that HK is an asset and I presume china wishes to keep it an asset but they must, at some level anyway, realise that they will choke it if they grab it, but grab it apparently they must. ISTM china can either have some of what it wants, or try for all and eventually get none, and they seem to be heading for the latter. I don't understand the thinking. So can anyone enlighten me as to the economic and political theory behind it? Edit: I may be plain wrong and they genuinely can have it all, I just don't see how.

pertymcpert 7y ago
HK economically is not significant to China. It wants to control it for ideological reasons. If it destroys the economy, that's a price it will be willing to pay.
- Schnitz 7y ago
  What they are really scared about is that Hong Kong and Taiwan demonstrate that other systems than an authoritarian one party dictatorship can work well in a "Chinese" society. The mainland party line is that democracy wouldn't work for "Chinese" because whatever culture thousands years of history blah blah bs and that sounds a bit stupid if there are flourishing democracies in HK and TW. It's all about keeping the lid on the mainland.
  - rshawshaw 7y ago
    China cares about Unity. American coins are minted with a Latin saying "e pluribus unum", which means "Out of many, one". It's a reminder that there were 13 colonies that united to become one. Hence the name the "United States of America". China and America are alike in that they value unity. The difference is that America has never lost a territory whereas China lost two: Taiwan to Japan and Hong Kong to Britain. In the process the people in Taiwan and Hong Kong who valued Chinese culture were killed by the Japanese and British and the ones who remain went along with the new regime to survive. China is trying to reclaim their land and people. But unlike the Japanese and British, they don't want to reclaim it with force/violence because the people of Taiwan and Hong Kong are Chinese. Instead they are looking for a more agreeable path towards re-integration. But honestly, it would be easier to do what Japan did to Taiwan b/c then the protests would end quickly and all you'd be left with are people who are outwardly compliant. It's a tricky situation and the western world is really playing it up to make China look like the bad guy while ignoring how Taiwan and HK were taken over to begin with. Reminds me of how foreign powers split up Korea and Vietnam into North and South. After dividing these countries up they became weak. Hence the importance of unity. China doesn't want to make the same mistake.

_cs2017_ 7y ago

I expected the Beijing government would (a) continuously improve its image in Hong Kong, and (b) monitor HK public opinion to ensure they don't push its agenda to the point where it would risk instability. How in the world did they mess up so badly? It looks like a completely unforced error: prior to the extradition proposal, there was no social unrest, and barely any political activism. The time was on the Beijing side. It seems that someone is terrible at their job. If I was Xi, I would fire Carrie Lam, and appoint someone more capable in her place. Someone who can understand and relate to the public, who can earn the respect of the population, who recognizes the long term interests of Beijing and yet knows how to trade them off against the need for stability. I know it's easy to criticize, but I think it's reasonable to have high expectations from HK Chief Executive. And it's very sad to watch a great city threatened by the leader's incompetence.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
One of the problems with power is that the more power you have, the less truth you hear. Xi has grabbed total control of power in China, and one of the results is that people almost certainly tell him what they think he wants to hear, rather than what he needs to hear.
- _cs2017_ 7y ago
  If that's the case, hopefully, he can learn from the clear screwups like this that his team fails at keeping him informed. And hopefully he can still find people who can do more than flatter and kowtow, and get them to advise him. I do think though that things are not as bad as in ancient China. I think people are trying to inform him, they are just not very good at it.
  - kenneth 7y ago
    So you want him to succeed?
    - rshawshaw 7y ago

WomanCanCode 7y ago

This fight in Hong Kong is larger than just fighting over democracy. It's about preserving traditional Chinese culture and the Cantonese language. Who wants to be forcefully extradite and sent to camps to be re-educated about what the party believe is the correct value system?

rshawshaw 7y ago
If this protest was about preserving traditional Chinese Culture and the Cantonese language, they would be pro-China and not Pro-British Hong Kong. Last I checked English was one of the nationally recognized languages, which is NOT a part of the traditional Chinese culture. Also there seems to be an exaggerated fear about who would be extradited. But based on the response, maybe a lot of the people in Hong Kong have something to hide.