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>would seduce Grace M. Hopper to write a paper titled “The Education of a Computer”. I'm one of the least likely people to start screaming sexism at the drop o

>would seduce Grace M. Hopper to write a paper titled “The Education of a Computer”. I'm one of the least likely people to start screaming sexism at the drop of a hat but does this turn of phrase seem a bit, well, sexist? On the nomenclature topic, it's interesting to note that Georgia Tech and many others have a School of Computing so it's not that unusual of a term.

urda 7y ago
It is sexist, it is inappropriate, and has no place coming from someone who is Professor.
- tzs 7y ago
  Do you think Obi-Wan Kenobi was being sexist or inappropriate when he told Luke Skywalker in "Return of the Jedi" that Luke's father was seduced by the dark side? "Seduce" has several meanings in English. One is to entice someone into sexual activity. Another is to attract to a belief or course of action that is foolhardy or inadvisable. Generally you can tell from context which meaning is intended.
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    Context very much matters here, too. Not only was it Dijkstra’s particular vitriolic way of expressing himself, as another commenter noted, you have to keep in mind this was written 20 years ago by a man born in 1930 who was then almost 70. Admiral Hopper was dead by then, but, had she still been living, I personally think she might have gotten a laugh out of it.
the_af 7y ago
I don't see it. What part seems sexist to you? The sentence is relevant because Grace Hopper's work was the precursor to COBOL, and COBOL is the embodiment of what Dijkstra was complaining about.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  It's a bit odd to use the word "seduce" there.
  - the_af 7y ago
    Fair enough. It doesn't seem odd to me (one is seduced by dangerous but superficially appealing ideas, and this has little to do with one's sex), and more importantly, look at the whole sentence: > "It was the time of Edmund C. Berkeley’s “Giant Brains or Machines that Think”, it was the time of rampant anthropomorphism that would lead to the false hope of solving the programming problem by the verbosity of COBOL and would seduce Grace M. Hopper to write a paper titled “The Education of a Computer”. Regrettably and amazingly, the habit lingers on: it is quite easy to infuriate computing scientists by pointing out that anthropomorphizing inanimate objects is in science a symptom of professional immaturity." Like another comment here points out, this use of "seduce" is akin to "being seduced by the Dark Side of the Force". Anakin Skywalker was a man! Also, this was Dijkstra's (slightly vitriolic) way of speaking. If you've read other [0] stuff [1] by him [2], you'll instantly recognize his style. And he isn't singling Grace out either; in any case, he seems to refer to her as another computer scientist, sharing the "professional immaturity" with Edmund Berkeley, a man. [0] "Go To Statement Considered Harmful" http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/Go_To_Considered_Harmful.html http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/Go_T... [1] "On the cruelty of really teaching computing science" https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1036.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD103... [2] "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense." "FORTRAN, 'the infantile disorder', by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today: it is now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use." "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra
    - oarabbus_ 7y ago
      Good points - I don't think this is a case of egregious sexism or anything. But I think greed can seduce a person, I think power can seduce a person, I think fame can seduce a person. I've never heard of "false hope" or "rampant anthropomorphism" as seductive, though.
blunte 7y ago
It is perfectly reasonable to use the term "seduce" when one definition is "entice (someone) to do or believe something inadvisable or foolhardy". Just because popular language may only use one meaning of seduce does not mean that a writer with a strong vocabulary may not use it with a valid but less common meaning.

urda 7y ago

It is sexist, it is inappropriate, and has no place coming from someone who is Professor.

tzs 7y ago
Do you think Obi-Wan Kenobi was being sexist or inappropriate when he told Luke Skywalker in "Return of the Jedi" that Luke's father was seduced by the dark side? "Seduce" has several meanings in English. One is to entice someone into sexual activity. Another is to attract to a belief or course of action that is foolhardy or inadvisable. Generally you can tell from context which meaning is intended.
- pmiller2 7y ago
  Context very much matters here, too. Not only was it Dijkstra’s particular vitriolic way of expressing himself, as another commenter noted, you have to keep in mind this was written 20 years ago by a man born in 1930 who was then almost 70. Admiral Hopper was dead by then, but, had she still been living, I personally think she might have gotten a laugh out of it.

the_af 7y ago

I don't see it. What part seems sexist to you? The sentence is relevant because Grace Hopper's work was the precursor to COBOL, and COBOL is the embodiment of what Dijkstra was complaining about.

oarabbus_ 7y ago
It's a bit odd to use the word "seduce" there.
- the_af 7y ago
  Fair enough. It doesn't seem odd to me (one is seduced by dangerous but superficially appealing ideas, and this has little to do with one's sex), and more importantly, look at the whole sentence: > "It was the time of Edmund C. Berkeley’s “Giant Brains or Machines that Think”, it was the time of rampant anthropomorphism that would lead to the false hope of solving the programming problem by the verbosity of COBOL and would seduce Grace M. Hopper to write a paper titled “The Education of a Computer”. Regrettably and amazingly, the habit lingers on: it is quite easy to infuriate computing scientists by pointing out that anthropomorphizing inanimate objects is in science a symptom of professional immaturity." Like another comment here points out, this use of "seduce" is akin to "being seduced by the Dark Side of the Force". Anakin Skywalker was a man! Also, this was Dijkstra's (slightly vitriolic) way of speaking. If you've read other [0] stuff [1] by him [2], you'll instantly recognize his style. And he isn't singling Grace out either; in any case, he seems to refer to her as another computer scientist, sharing the "professional immaturity" with Edmund Berkeley, a man. [0] "Go To Statement Considered Harmful" http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/Go_To_Considered_Harmful.html http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/Go_T... [1] "On the cruelty of really teaching computing science" https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1036.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD103... [2] "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense." "FORTRAN, 'the infantile disorder', by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today: it is now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use." "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra
  - oarabbus_ 7y ago
    Good points - I don't think this is a case of egregious sexism or anything. But I think greed can seduce a person, I think power can seduce a person, I think fame can seduce a person. I've never heard of "false hope" or "rampant anthropomorphism" as seductive, though.

blunte 7y ago

It is perfectly reasonable to use the term "seduce" when one definition is "entice (someone) to do or believe something inadvisable or foolhardy". Just because popular language may only use one meaning of seduce does not mean that a writer with a strong vocabulary may not use it with a valid but less common meaning.