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If/when I have kids, I think I'll be doing everything I can to keep them off smart phones (or at least, YouTube + social media + games like Fornite). All these

If/when I have kids, I think I'll be doing everything I can to keep them off smart phones (or at least, YouTube + social media + games like Fornite). All these platforms seem explicitly designed to exploit insecurities and encourage a mindless mob mentality. It's the antithesis of individualism and I cannot see how it could possibly improve one's life (at least, before you have the maturity to be comfortable in your own skin). The more I read articles like this, the more I think the whole thing is pure toxicity. I don't know how realistic or practical it's going to be to ban smartphones/social media, while still encouraging programming, internet research, experimentation and so on.

_nalply 7y ago
If you don't give your kids smart phones you cut them off of people. It's a conundrum. You will only be able to keep your kids off smart phones if you live in a community not using smart phones much for example the Amish. I think parents of the one percent could also create such a community for their children if they are diligent and choose the right private school. My 6 year old son will go to a summer camp where smart phones are expressly forbidden. Not that I give him a smart phone but at least the older children won't have smart phones, too.
- avinium 7y ago
  Yeah, I suspect it really requires a community of like-minded parents. Camp is a good start. For what it's worth, one state in Australia just announced a ban on phones during school hours - couldn't agree more. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-25/victoria-to-ban-mobile-phones-in-public-schools-from-first-bell/11246414 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-25/victoria-to-ban-mobil...
  - _nalply 7y ago
    That's not enough, I am afraid. I think we should think holistically, this means, don't only look at school but also at family, peer relations and society at large. In other words I propose that we should completely forbid functional smart phones for children below 10 years then officially introduce smart phones in school as a part of the school's curriculum. The curriculum also limits usage and relaxes the rules when the children get older. Children also should have a say about rules. Also needed are places where children and teenagers can meet and these places must be autonomously accessible (for example near the school but independent from school). Such a community allows the children to learn about internet and social media in a safe and controlled manner. I think the children would prefer to play together instead of staying alone in bedrooms anyway.
    - homonculus1 7y ago
      How on earth could that ever be realistically enforced?
      - _nalply 7y ago
        The Amish know how to enforce their own rules.
        homonculus1 7y ago
        By common values and mutual consent. What you're proposing, in the context of broader society, would have to be imposed top-down. Maybe I misunderstood and you're just saying it as a nice what-if, in which case I would agree that small children should be grounded in the physical world first.
        _nalply 7y ago
        Yes, this is a what-if, and for some lucky people even achievable (Amish and one percent).
- Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
  > If you don't give your kids smart phones you cut them off of people. It's a conundrum. You cut them off from people if they don't have a $1000 computer in their pocket? Dumb phones are still a thing. They can call, text, and many have a camera that can send lower-res images. I think that's way more than enough to stay in touch. They don't need "Apps".
  - gbear605 7y ago
    Sorry to tell you this, but teenagers don’t text anymore. They use apps instead - Instagram, Snapchat, Whatsapp, Telegram - because texting is a broken system that doesn’t work reliably. If you cut your kid off from a smartphone, given today’s teenagers, you would be excluding them from anything social outside of school.
    - Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
      > because texting is a broken system that doesn’t work reliably Oh really? Could you elaborate on that? I, as a high-tech professional in my early 30s, keep in touch with my pals in a group text. It's never failed.
      - gbear605 7y ago
        Does your friend group include both iPhones and Androids? From experience, any group chat that includes both is going to result in splits (like in IRC), messages simply not going through, and messages arriving multiple days late. In addition, they don’t have the usability features that you get from apps, like read receipts, or being able to add a person to a group message and them being able to see the entire history. EDIT: That said, you don’t need a $1000 iPhone. A $200 used smartphone (easily found for iPhone or Android) is good enough.
        Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
        Point well taken. Apps do provide some usability boost and it's true that in a mixed iOS/Android setting things can get funky sometimes, but I always assumed that it was a carrier issue. As much as I hate Facebook, Messenger is pretty damn solid.
- jriot 7y ago
  You cut them off from nothing. I'm a 34 old data scientist without a smartphone, and I'm not cut from anything, why would they?

_nalply 7y ago

If you don't give your kids smart phones you cut them off of people. It's a conundrum. You will only be able to keep your kids off smart phones if you live in a community not using smart phones much for example the Amish. I think parents of the one percent could also create such a community for their children if they are diligent and choose the right private school. My 6 year old son will go to a summer camp where smart phones are expressly forbidden. Not that I give him a smart phone but at least the older children won't have smart phones, too.

avinium 7y ago
Yeah, I suspect it really requires a community of like-minded parents. Camp is a good start. For what it's worth, one state in Australia just announced a ban on phones during school hours - couldn't agree more. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-25/victoria-to-ban-mobile-phones-in-public-schools-from-first-bell/11246414 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-25/victoria-to-ban-mobil...
- _nalply 7y ago
  That's not enough, I am afraid. I think we should think holistically, this means, don't only look at school but also at family, peer relations and society at large. In other words I propose that we should completely forbid functional smart phones for children below 10 years then officially introduce smart phones in school as a part of the school's curriculum. The curriculum also limits usage and relaxes the rules when the children get older. Children also should have a say about rules. Also needed are places where children and teenagers can meet and these places must be autonomously accessible (for example near the school but independent from school). Such a community allows the children to learn about internet and social media in a safe and controlled manner. I think the children would prefer to play together instead of staying alone in bedrooms anyway.
  - homonculus1 7y ago
    How on earth could that ever be realistically enforced?
    - _nalply 7y ago
      The Amish know how to enforce their own rules.
      - homonculus1 7y ago
        By common values and mutual consent. What you're proposing, in the context of broader society, would have to be imposed top-down. Maybe I misunderstood and you're just saying it as a nice what-if, in which case I would agree that small children should be grounded in the physical world first.
        _nalply 7y ago
        Yes, this is a what-if, and for some lucky people even achievable (Amish and one percent).
Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
> If you don't give your kids smart phones you cut them off of people. It's a conundrum. You cut them off from people if they don't have a $1000 computer in their pocket? Dumb phones are still a thing. They can call, text, and many have a camera that can send lower-res images. I think that's way more than enough to stay in touch. They don't need "Apps".
- gbear605 7y ago
  Sorry to tell you this, but teenagers don’t text anymore. They use apps instead - Instagram, Snapchat, Whatsapp, Telegram - because texting is a broken system that doesn’t work reliably. If you cut your kid off from a smartphone, given today’s teenagers, you would be excluding them from anything social outside of school.
  - Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
    > because texting is a broken system that doesn’t work reliably Oh really? Could you elaborate on that? I, as a high-tech professional in my early 30s, keep in touch with my pals in a group text. It's never failed.
    - gbear605 7y ago
      Does your friend group include both iPhones and Androids? From experience, any group chat that includes both is going to result in splits (like in IRC), messages simply not going through, and messages arriving multiple days late. In addition, they don’t have the usability features that you get from apps, like read receipts, or being able to add a person to a group message and them being able to see the entire history. EDIT: That said, you don’t need a $1000 iPhone. A $200 used smartphone (easily found for iPhone or Android) is good enough.
      - Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
        Point well taken. Apps do provide some usability boost and it's true that in a mixed iOS/Android setting things can get funky sometimes, but I always assumed that it was a carrier issue. As much as I hate Facebook, Messenger is pretty damn solid.
jriot 7y ago
You cut them off from nothing. I'm a 34 old data scientist without a smartphone, and I'm not cut from anything, why would they?