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I feel like I'm going to be in a huge minority here but I am one of those developers that builds websites that won't load without js. Hear me out though. I pri

I feel like I'm going to be in a huge minority here but I am one of those developers that builds websites that won't load without js. Hear me out though. I primarily work with ecom, and we build highly dynamic sites in an increasingly rapid arms race for engaging design. Before vue I worked with jQuery like everyone else, controlling the dom manually to react to changes in application state. Those were dark days. Now I can manage the cart state and increasingly everything else over apis and have the application display all these updates in real time, along with all the whizz bang the design team decides is flavour of the week. All in not much more time than jQuery and basic layouts previously took. So, sorry if my site doesn't load without JS, but it's not about the ads. The web isn't just document display anymore, everything is an app.

pixelbash 7y ago
Also before someone mentions it, I am using SSR where possible so at least something displays, it doesn't make one of these websites function well without js though.
gargravarr 7y ago
I am not protesting the idea that a site should work without JS - quite the opposite, I accept that active content and user interaction requires JS (as much as I loathe the language). What I am protesting, however, is that graceful degredation doesn't happen. The entire site either breaks or blocks you from viewing static content unless you enable JS. Why am I prevented from viewing a product's information page before I decide whether or not I want to add it to the cart? Why does a news article render as 3 columns of disjointed text that are unreadable until they're assembled? Why don't images load at all unless I permit a CDN to shove a load of JS into my browser for fancy slideshows, zooming, whatever, rather than just placing a small static image there so I can decide if I want to zoom into the dynamic larger image? The worst ones are those that pop up a banner or overlay that darkens the page with the loaded article until I enable JS. Like, you have literally proved your page works without JS. There is literally no reason for me to enable it, except for you to load several different analytics modules that chew up my CPU and siphon as much identifiable data as they can get their hands on.
- pixelbash 7y ago
  The dynamic dom frameworks (and webpacks) have a tendency to encourage moving everything into javascript. Generally this means that enabling gradual degredation requires building most things twice, once in static form and again for when vue et al have been loaded. Separating the two takes significant time and effort, which also introduces extra surface area for bugs and odd interactions. It is expensive to build this way, and there are other things worth prioritising. Ultimately all website are optimised for their target audience, if 30% of our users used IE6 then we would (sadly) target that. If users value ease of use on a baseline browser then that is prioritised, and if static information and nojs turned out to be what most users valued highly then we would do that too.
  - mastre_ 7y ago
    You would think that SSR could take care of the problem and not require one to build twice. Most of these frameworks are very opinionated, if they cared about doing the right thing I don't think it would be hard to extend their opinions to make it so that content is tagged in ways that allow the framework to automatically generate the multiple views needed for graceful degradation.
  - dbtx 7y ago
    > an increasingly rapid arms race for engaging design For us, the arms race is that other one about getting code to execute on people's machines, including the virtual ones, versus preventing that. The mere existence of good code that is worth running makes it a hard problem. More of that just makes it more pressing even if not actually harder. > Ultimately all website are optimised for their target audience Ultimately all audiences are being optimized for the ideal website which shares its ideal viewing conditions with websites that are being used against the users (i.e. code runs even though we don't know or explicitly trust the authors or their employers or really anyone around it).
- dbtx 7y ago
  This. on the side, > banner or overlay that darkens the page Sometimes with ABP or UBO you can right-click and blow out that <div> which their JS would have cheerfully made invisible. Also, sometimes FF's "reader view" blanks everything but the meat of the article even if the article was hidden. (you probably know that-- for future reference and any passers-by, until the world breaks it all again. vive la révolution)
numlock86 7y ago
> So, sorry if my site doesn't load without JS, but it's not about the ads. The web isn't just document display anymore, everything is an app. Hands down, this was the comment I was looking for to agree with.
pjmlp 7y ago
There is a big difference between 100% JavaScript everywhere and having Vue component to manage cart state though. A large majority of whizz bang the design team decides, can be done just with HTML 5 and CSS 3.
- pixelbash 7y ago
  Where it can be done with H5 and CSS3 we use those things, we don't invite complexity for the sake of it, but it's really very easy to run into the limitations of CSS3 when doing something even slightly unusual. Vue replaces the dom of wherever the app is, so the choice is between having everything within a single app div or having a ton of apps talking to each other. Given that the ton of apps solution still breaks fairly essential functionality (for online shopping) and requires a fair amount more structure it's a bit hard to see the benefits.

pixelbash 7y ago

Also before someone mentions it, I am using SSR where possible so at least something displays, it doesn't make one of these websites function well without js though.

gargravarr 7y ago

I am not protesting the idea that a site should work without JS - quite the opposite, I accept that active content and user interaction requires JS (as much as I loathe the language). What I am protesting, however, is that graceful degredation doesn't happen. The entire site either breaks or blocks you from viewing static content unless you enable JS. Why am I prevented from viewing a product's information page before I decide whether or not I want to add it to the cart? Why does a news article render as 3 columns of disjointed text that are unreadable until they're assembled? Why don't images load at all unless I permit a CDN to shove a load of JS into my browser for fancy slideshows, zooming, whatever, rather than just placing a small static image there so I can decide if I want to zoom into the dynamic larger image? The worst ones are those that pop up a banner or overlay that darkens the page with the loaded article until I enable JS. Like, you have literally proved your page works without JS. There is literally no reason for me to enable it, except for you to load several different analytics modules that chew up my CPU and siphon as much identifiable data as they can get their hands on.

pixelbash 7y ago
The dynamic dom frameworks (and webpacks) have a tendency to encourage moving everything into javascript. Generally this means that enabling gradual degredation requires building most things twice, once in static form and again for when vue et al have been loaded. Separating the two takes significant time and effort, which also introduces extra surface area for bugs and odd interactions. It is expensive to build this way, and there are other things worth prioritising. Ultimately all website are optimised for their target audience, if 30% of our users used IE6 then we would (sadly) target that. If users value ease of use on a baseline browser then that is prioritised, and if static information and nojs turned out to be what most users valued highly then we would do that too.
- mastre_ 7y ago
  You would think that SSR could take care of the problem and not require one to build twice. Most of these frameworks are very opinionated, if they cared about doing the right thing I don't think it would be hard to extend their opinions to make it so that content is tagged in ways that allow the framework to automatically generate the multiple views needed for graceful degradation.
- dbtx 7y ago
  > an increasingly rapid arms race for engaging design For us, the arms race is that other one about getting code to execute on people's machines, including the virtual ones, versus preventing that. The mere existence of good code that is worth running makes it a hard problem. More of that just makes it more pressing even if not actually harder. > Ultimately all website are optimised for their target audience Ultimately all audiences are being optimized for the ideal website which shares its ideal viewing conditions with websites that are being used against the users (i.e. code runs even though we don't know or explicitly trust the authors or their employers or really anyone around it).
dbtx 7y ago
This. on the side, > banner or overlay that darkens the page Sometimes with ABP or UBO you can right-click and blow out that <div> which their JS would have cheerfully made invisible. Also, sometimes FF's "reader view" blanks everything but the meat of the article even if the article was hidden. (you probably know that-- for future reference and any passers-by, until the world breaks it all again. vive la révolution)

numlock86 7y ago

> So, sorry if my site doesn't load without JS, but it's not about the ads. The web isn't just document display anymore, everything is an app. Hands down, this was the comment I was looking for to agree with.

pjmlp 7y ago

There is a big difference between 100% JavaScript everywhere and having Vue component to manage cart state though. A large majority of whizz bang the design team decides, can be done just with HTML 5 and CSS 3.

pixelbash 7y ago
Where it can be done with H5 and CSS3 we use those things, we don't invite complexity for the sake of it, but it's really very easy to run into the limitations of CSS3 when doing something even slightly unusual. Vue replaces the dom of wherever the app is, so the choice is between having everything within a single app div or having a ton of apps talking to each other. Given that the ton of apps solution still breaks fairly essential functionality (for online shopping) and requires a fair amount more structure it's a bit hard to see the benefits.