8 ms·
On the contrary. Deplatforming fascism works[1]. This removes a small number of tools that they use to recruit. It is step in the right direction. 1. https://w
by omegaworks 7y ago
On the contrary. Deplatforming fascism works[1]. This removes a small number of tools that they use to recruit. It is step in the right direction.
1. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-bans-work https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-ba...
- goodfight 7y agoCensorship is a step in the direction of fascism. You have become what you hate most.
- ssalazar 7y agoHow is a business censoring their own networks related to fascism? Is the downvote button fascist? This is the classic "paradox of tolerance."
- leereeves 7y agoWhy is it more acceptable when a business does it than when a government does it?
- locopati 7y agoBecause if you live in a country there's only one government. Business provide a service and you can find another service that meets your needs.
- ssalazar 7y agoThe same reason if I go to a stranger's house and start debating with them about my own political opinions they are free to kick me out. Free enterprise and private property are generally considered fundaments of modern civil society. Im all ears if you have an argument to the contrary.
- leereeves 7y agoWe're not talking about people's houses. In the context of business, California has already made that argument for me, making it illegal to discriminate based on political views.
- ssalazar 7y ago> We're not talking about people's houses. I'm talking about private property and the right to do with it as one pleases so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. When a group of people create a business this doesn't magically go away. > In the context of business, California has already made that argument for me, making it illegal to discriminate based on political views. Certain protected classes are legally protected from discrimination, yes. To my knowledge "advocating violence" is not a political view; this is what the r/The_Donald is being quarantined for.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- leereeves 7y agoHere's the original story accusing TD of advocating violence: https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2019/06/24/A-pro-Trump-subreddit-is-full-of-calls-for-violence-in-support-of-Oregon-Republicans/224018 https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2019/06/24/A-pro-Trump... Featuring comments with as few as 1 point. Those are just an excuse to further restrict a community they've restricted several times in the past, without admitting it's for political reasons.
- awinder 7y agoWouldn’t it be invasive to demand that anyone handle anyone else’s business? There’s two freedoms being negotiated there, and the law origins basically boil down to — by emphasizing the business owners freedom the market should be able to support a solution for the other (or you go build that business, if it is needed). Total freedom in that system is higher than in the one that demands anyone do business with anyone. R_TheDonald is a forum on someone’s product, there’s a low barrier erected here, they could go buy a url and some servers and continue their speech.
- leereeves 7y ago> Wouldn’t it be invasive to demand that anyone handle anyone else’s business? Maybe, but it's a very common demand.
- BubRoss 7y agoBecause the business is choosing who they use their resources to rebroadcast under their name and the government has a monopoly on violence. The government is not guaranteeing that they will rebroadcast whatever you want to say, they are just not giving you consequences for saying it. Businesses aren't imposing consequences of violence on speech, they just are choosing not to be a part of it. Someone not listening to you is not censorship.
- goodfight 7y agoIt's a step in the direction to fascism, that doesn't mean it is fascist. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The downvote button is part of a ranking algorithm from the userbase, deboosting is part of the ranking algorithm from the host. Would you like it if a "platform" tied an anchor on your success/views because they didn't agree with your opinions? Since you believe in the paradox of tolerance do you agree that the US shouldn't let Islamic migrants come due to their belief in vile things such as throwing gays off roofs?
- bduerst 7y agoThe USSR heavily censored content, were they stepping closer to fascism? I don't think you're using facism in the right context here, maybe you meant something else?
- goodfight 7y agoWhen you start from democracy, censorship becoming prevalent is a step towards fascism, authoritarianism, socialism, communism, technocracy, etc.
- bduerst 7y agoAs someone else pointed out, Reddit's not a democracy so they're not starting as one either. Unless you count their private corporation as a democracy of sorts, but then they're most likely acting in their shareholders' interests. Maybe you meant the word authoritarian instead of fascist?
- omegaworks 7y agoDeplatforming is not censorship. Twisting definitions to suit your impotence in the face of actual rising authoritarianism does not help anyone.
- MRD85 7y agoCensorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".[2][3][4] Censorship can be conducted by a government[5], private institutions, and corporations. That's the first definition I found when I googled the word. Reddit, a private institution, considered the content harmful. Seems to fit the definition.
- root_axis 7y agoBased on that definition it cannot be assumed that censorship is always wrong. For example, removing a post that was doxxing an individual would be considered censorship but could also be the moral thing to do. I would also point out that the_donald has a very aggressive moderation policy where most comments critical of the president are removed, so I don't think there is much room for them to complain about censorship.
- goodfight 7y agoDeplatforming, shadow banning, deboosting, demonetization are all modern forms of censorship. It might not be exactly like the Chinese or other types of censorships we have seen in the past but it is a valid form of censorship. Definitions aren't everything, context matters. If you want to see a rising power filled with authoritarianism, look towards Google.
- hnBansByDefault 7y agoBut HN would never do such a thing, right?
- dang 7y ago
- asdfgasd 7y agoNot necessarily. The Soviet government was engaged in significant censorship and was not fascist. Same with the CCP currently. Fascism implies censorship, but censorship does not imply fascism.
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoYou are correct that fascists aren't the only ones who censor. But that doesn't make it something that should be a normal part of a free, democratic society. (Your Soviet and CCP examples highlight that, which may have been your point.)
- goodfight 7y agoI said a step in the direction to fascism. I never asserted that censorship itself requires fascism. They usually come hand in hand though.
- egypturnash 7y agoDeplatforming is to toxic mindsets as an immune system is to disease.
- goodfight 7y agoThat's a good parallel actually. There are immune system diseases where the system kills the good cells too because it can't discriminate correctly. You're right!
- BubRoss 7y agoYou do realize that /r/the_donald immediately bans anyone that isn't 100% on board with the agressive propoganda right?
- AngryData 7y agoI disagree completely. This is the same thing as the paradox of tolerance. If you want a tolerant society, you have to be intolerant against intolerance. If you want a non-fascist society you need to be fascist against fascism. Otherwise the intolerant/fascist side gains a platform and turns the community intolerant or fascist overall.
- goodfight 7y ago"If you want a non-fascist society you need to be fascist against fascism." This statement says it all, the ends justify the means. Sounds like every terrible dictator or authoritarian society that has existed on the Earth so far.
- AngryData 7y agoRead about "the paradox of tolerance" and maybe you will understand what im talking about a bit better. What parts of fascism are acceptable to society? The intolerance of other groups? The claimed superiority over others? The militarization of civilians and their forced involvement into the military and war? The forced labor of captured civilians to feed the war machine? They literally believe democracy is obsolete and that the government should be run under a single party via totalitarian rule. That is there literal stated goal. They cheer on political violence and imperialism as a goal to 'rejuvenating' their state. They literally want to dismantle democracy and put us under dictatorial rule.
- archagon 7y agoYou could also say that “not listening to speech you despise is a step in the direction of fascism,” and it’s an equally empty statement. I mean, I guess it’s technically true. But it also means that literally everybody is a virulent and unrepentant fascist in their social lives.
- goodfight 7y agoRemaining unbiased in the secular/science domain is critical to the future of humanity. If you are going to be biased, please at least do your research. Don't just browse twitter and think you are informed.
- DaniloDias 7y agoThese kinds of comments make me so disappointed. You are out of touch. Labeling people that you don’t understand as “fascist” is going to lead you to a shithole. Get out of your bubble, arm yourself with some compassion, and go try and understand what motivates people to disrupt the status quo. Most trump supporters hate fascism. You are deluding yourself by tossing a mr. yuck sticker on people you don’t understand.
- OldManTheo 7y agoI'm not an American and not in America but I find it hard to mentally integrate comments like this when it is quite clear the Trump government is appealing to fascist ideals. Perhaps I'm wrong and we should all be putting children in cages. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/25/americas/mexico-photo-of-father-and-daughter-dead-in-rio-grande/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/25/americas/mexico-photo-of-...
- xyzzyz 7y agoSo the guy tried to swim across Rio Grande, killed himself and his child in the process of doing so, and this somehow means that Trump government is fascist? Well, I guess that would make sense if he tried to swim to escape from the US, but seems like he actually was trying to get inside the "fascist" state. The kids in cages are also there because the parents tried very hard to get them inside the "fascist" state. Seems pretty irresponsible on their side, to put their children in the "fascists" hands, doesn't it?
- OldManTheo 7y agoNo, the authoritarian (anti-media, judge filling, etc) and nationalistic (trade wars, rejecting international treaties, etc) policies do. The human stories are just the result of those policies.
- xyzzyz 7y agoCan you explain how the authoritarian and nationalistic policies make humans so eager to get here that try to swim across Rio Grande with their child tucked under the shirt?