6 ms·

Whenever I see articles like this, I like to remind people that a great production system doesn't make a company more honest or accountable. Unintended acceler

Whenever I see articles like this, I like to remind people that a great production system doesn't make a company more honest or accountable. Unintended acceleration flaw in Toyota models around 2005 to 2011, due to firmware bugs: http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintended-acceleration-and-big-bowl-%E2%80%9Cspaghetti%E2%80%9D-code http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende... Great for USA customers. They were made whole. I personally was driving a 2011 Toyota minivan in Thailand in 2013 when I suffered this firmware bug. Toyota refused to consider it was anything other than driver fault. I was only going 5kph when it happened so no damage, but damn scary as hell. No recall in that country, and unless dealers did a covert firmware upgrade during maintenance, the flaw still exists in similar model years.

jacobush 7y ago
Weirdest thing, a colleague had unintended acceleration in a Toyota 4WD of much older vintage, 80s or early 90s. Must have been something different entirely, those things were much more mechanical in nature.
- btilly 7y ago
  Most cases of unintended acceleration, in all brands of cars, are due to the foot coming down on the wrong pedal. And then in a panic, your brain refuses to acknowledge the error and doubles down. Your memory gets based on what your brain thought, and not what actually happened. US government estimates are that this happens an average of around 16k times per year in the USA. The press release that Wikipedia cites for that has disappeared but you can find it on the wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20180423205652/https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-safety-advisory-reducing-crashes-caused-pedal-error https://web.archive.org/web/20180423205652/https://www.nhtsa... Toyota's acknowledged problem was a floor mat that could get jammed and cause the accelerator to stick. However most of their cases of unintended acceleration were still likely to be human error.
  - novaleaf 7y ago
    I'm sorry but you are wrong regarding the Toyota problem. There was (is?) a firmware issue that caused the vehicle to attempt to speed up, regardless of if the accelerator was pressed, or even if the brake was pressed. In my case, I had the brake fully depressed with around 100kg of force, and the engine was revving to attempt to overcome the brake (VERY scary situation, believe me!). The system only recovered when I bumped a taxi in front of me. Now you may say I was pushing the accelerator. If I did that I would have hit the car in front of me a lot faster than 5kph. If I was somehow pushing both the accelerator and the brake, the computer system should ignore the acceleration anyway (due to brake taking precedence). But you don't have to take my word for it. Go read up on the Toyota firmware issue, starting with link I put in the prior post. EDIT: here's another article, summarizing the faults as determined by court: https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer-firmware--Bad-design-and-its-consequences https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-kille... - Toyota’s electronic throttle control system (ETCS) source code is of unreasonable quality. - Toyota’s source code is defective and contains bugs, including bugs that can cause unintended acceleration (UA). - Code-quality metrics predict presence of additional bugs. - Toyota’s fail safes are defective and inadequate (referring to them as a “house of cards” safety architecture). - Misbehaviors of Toyota’s ETCS are a cause of UA.
    - maimeowmeow 7y ago
      maybe you were pressing both
      - novaleaf 7y ago
        From what I understand, the computer will (and should) reject the acceleration attempt in favor of the brake. But, if you own a reasonably modern vehicle, try it :)
        gavia1 7y ago
        If this were true people wouldn't be able to do burnouts in auto transmissions cars?
- mattdanger 7y ago
  Cars of that vintage still had cable operated throttle bodies which could stick for a number of reasons.
- abawany 7y ago
  Often badly-placed floormats could also cause this issue. I remember a few automaker recalls in the prior decade that comprised of adding hooks to the floor boards to avoid floormat movement.
polskibus 7y ago
I see it differently, according to some reports, Toyota Way did not really acknowledge software as part of the production process. see https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer-firmware--Bad-design-and-its-consequences https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-kille... I also remember reading another report that mentioned that software engineering was regarded as 2nd class discipline to hardware in many Japanese companies, and that resulted in sloppiness, lack of oversight and rigorous testing at that time. This problem was partially mitigated by placing SW R&D in other countries, where it was easier to attract talent. Lean methodology is focused on quality on multiple layers, however, as you mentioned, the implementation may not fulfil the spec.
m463 7y ago
I also wonder about research direction, such as the hydrogen fuel cell mirai, which doesn't seem practical. (of course it could be that when they started down that path, it was not clear that battery electric vehicles were practical either)
- nihonde 7y ago
  Mirai is a beachhead for applications that can’t tolerate charge times. Hydrogen can be transported and stored and is considered a viable alternative for industrial applications on an island nation that is currently dependent on the Middle East for oil. So of course the Japanese government created incentives for adoption and innovation. Also, until Tesla, Americans generally showed zero interest in non-hybrid electric vehicles. For all we know, fuel cells could have a brighter future than it appears they do right now.
  - m463 7y ago
    Yes, hindsight is 20/20. And it is research, which can sometimes not pan out, and sometimes shift back in 20 years.

jacobush 7y ago

Weirdest thing, a colleague had unintended acceleration in a Toyota 4WD of much older vintage, 80s or early 90s. Must have been something different entirely, those things were much more mechanical in nature.

btilly 7y ago
Most cases of unintended acceleration, in all brands of cars, are due to the foot coming down on the wrong pedal. And then in a panic, your brain refuses to acknowledge the error and doubles down. Your memory gets based on what your brain thought, and not what actually happened. US government estimates are that this happens an average of around 16k times per year in the USA. The press release that Wikipedia cites for that has disappeared but you can find it on the wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20180423205652/https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-safety-advisory-reducing-crashes-caused-pedal-error https://web.archive.org/web/20180423205652/https://www.nhtsa... Toyota's acknowledged problem was a floor mat that could get jammed and cause the accelerator to stick. However most of their cases of unintended acceleration were still likely to be human error.
- novaleaf 7y ago
  I'm sorry but you are wrong regarding the Toyota problem. There was (is?) a firmware issue that caused the vehicle to attempt to speed up, regardless of if the accelerator was pressed, or even if the brake was pressed. In my case, I had the brake fully depressed with around 100kg of force, and the engine was revving to attempt to overcome the brake (VERY scary situation, believe me!). The system only recovered when I bumped a taxi in front of me. Now you may say I was pushing the accelerator. If I did that I would have hit the car in front of me a lot faster than 5kph. If I was somehow pushing both the accelerator and the brake, the computer system should ignore the acceleration anyway (due to brake taking precedence). But you don't have to take my word for it. Go read up on the Toyota firmware issue, starting with link I put in the prior post. EDIT: here's another article, summarizing the faults as determined by court: https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer-firmware--Bad-design-and-its-consequences https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-kille... - Toyota’s electronic throttle control system (ETCS) source code is of unreasonable quality. - Toyota’s source code is defective and contains bugs, including bugs that can cause unintended acceleration (UA). - Code-quality metrics predict presence of additional bugs. - Toyota’s fail safes are defective and inadequate (referring to them as a “house of cards” safety architecture). - Misbehaviors of Toyota’s ETCS are a cause of UA.
  - maimeowmeow 7y ago
    maybe you were pressing both
    - novaleaf 7y ago
      From what I understand, the computer will (and should) reject the acceleration attempt in favor of the brake. But, if you own a reasonably modern vehicle, try it :)
      - gavia1 7y ago
        If this were true people wouldn't be able to do burnouts in auto transmissions cars?
mattdanger 7y ago
Cars of that vintage still had cable operated throttle bodies which could stick for a number of reasons.
abawany 7y ago
Often badly-placed floormats could also cause this issue. I remember a few automaker recalls in the prior decade that comprised of adding hooks to the floor boards to avoid floormat movement.

polskibus 7y ago

I see it differently, according to some reports, Toyota Way did not really acknowledge software as part of the production process. see https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer-firmware--Bad-design-and-its-consequences https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-kille... I also remember reading another report that mentioned that software engineering was regarded as 2nd class discipline to hardware in many Japanese companies, and that resulted in sloppiness, lack of oversight and rigorous testing at that time. This problem was partially mitigated by placing SW R&D in other countries, where it was easier to attract talent. Lean methodology is focused on quality on multiple layers, however, as you mentioned, the implementation may not fulfil the spec.

m463 7y ago

I also wonder about research direction, such as the hydrogen fuel cell mirai, which doesn't seem practical. (of course it could be that when they started down that path, it was not clear that battery electric vehicles were practical either)

nihonde 7y ago
Mirai is a beachhead for applications that can’t tolerate charge times. Hydrogen can be transported and stored and is considered a viable alternative for industrial applications on an island nation that is currently dependent on the Middle East for oil. So of course the Japanese government created incentives for adoption and innovation. Also, until Tesla, Americans generally showed zero interest in non-hybrid electric vehicles. For all we know, fuel cells could have a brighter future than it appears they do right now.
- m463 7y ago
  Yes, hindsight is 20/20. And it is research, which can sometimes not pan out, and sometimes shift back in 20 years.