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Since reading Christopher Alexander's Nature of Order series (verbose, probably could be trimmed down quite a bit), I find it much more natural to view everythi

Since reading Christopher Alexander's Nature of Order series (verbose, probably could be trimmed down quite a bit), I find it much more natural to view everything as living to various degrees across all sizes / compositions of matter, which he argues for on a mathematical basis. Here's a snippet from the first volume, lifted from the linked wiki page: > Centers are those particular identified sets, or systems, which appear within the larger whole as distinct and noticeable parts. They appear because they have noticeable distinctness, which makes them separate out from their surroundings and makes them cohere, and it is from the arrangements of these coherent parts that other coherent parts appear. The life or intensity of one center is increased or decreased according to the position and intensity of other nearby centers. Above all, centers become most intense when the centers which they are made of help each other. Unfortunately, this perspective makes mankind's treatment of nature all the more repellent as the horror of our actions towards the rest of life (and ultimately, ourselves) is so, so self-defeating. We just can't seem to evolve past self-interest where self is defined by the boundary of our body / family / tribe. :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Alexander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Alexander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_of_Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_of_Order

JackFr 7y ago
> Unfortunately, this perspective makes mankind's treatment of nature all the more repellent as the horror of our actions towards the rest of life (and ultimately, ourselves) is so, so self-defeating. We just can't seem to evolve past self-interest where self is defined by the boundary of our body / family / tribe. :( You're packing a lot of 20th century cultural angsty baggage in that thought. Your worldview is not universal.
- dota_fanatic 7y ago
  I don't think you understood the previous paragraph; the view I'm espousing that Alexander laid out is universal and objective. It has nothing to do with culture, but everything to do with physical systems, it is a lens by which to measure the nature of order, or in other words, life itself as a universal quality of configurations of matter. We are not sustainably increasing order on the planet Earth, and if current trends continue, we will see an incredible amount of life / order disappear into entropy. That's a fair prediction given current evidence. Your statement about my worldview is akin to saying 2 + 2 = 4 is not universal, never mind that that formalism is dependable in this universe. Maybe in some other universe 2 + 1 = 4, but not in this one. You can disagree with the model that Alexander lays out, but the correctness of that sentiment has nothing to do with "20th century cultural angsty baggage".
  - JackFr 7y ago
    You miss my point. I don't disagree that events are unfolding in the manner you describe. But you have a preference it seems, to the way in which you would rather have them unfold. "Unfortunately", "repellent", "horror" are all value judgements, and they might not be universal.

JackFr 7y ago

> Unfortunately, this perspective makes mankind's treatment of nature all the more repellent as the horror of our actions towards the rest of life (and ultimately, ourselves) is so, so self-defeating. We just can't seem to evolve past self-interest where self is defined by the boundary of our body / family / tribe. :( You're packing a lot of 20th century cultural angsty baggage in that thought. Your worldview is not universal.

dota_fanatic 7y ago
I don't think you understood the previous paragraph; the view I'm espousing that Alexander laid out is universal and objective. It has nothing to do with culture, but everything to do with physical systems, it is a lens by which to measure the nature of order, or in other words, life itself as a universal quality of configurations of matter. We are not sustainably increasing order on the planet Earth, and if current trends continue, we will see an incredible amount of life / order disappear into entropy. That's a fair prediction given current evidence. Your statement about my worldview is akin to saying 2 + 2 = 4 is not universal, never mind that that formalism is dependable in this universe. Maybe in some other universe 2 + 1 = 4, but not in this one. You can disagree with the model that Alexander lays out, but the correctness of that sentiment has nothing to do with "20th century cultural angsty baggage".
- JackFr 7y ago
  You miss my point. I don't disagree that events are unfolding in the manner you describe. But you have a preference it seems, to the way in which you would rather have them unfold. "Unfortunately", "repellent", "horror" are all value judgements, and they might not be universal.