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That's a fairly limited view of physics. We don't actually fully understand how our bodies interact with the quantum (or Newtonian, really) physics realms that

by bdamm 7y ago

That's a fairly limited view of physics. We don't actually fully understand how our bodies interact with the quantum (or Newtonian, really) physics realms that we exist within. There's a lot more to the brain than just (just! hah!) neurotransmitters and neural layout.

sysbin 7y ago
Determinism isn't a limited view of physics. There are people who understand determinism and then there are people who prefer faith than understanding determinism.
- bdamm 7y ago
  The closer we look into quantum phenomena the less deterministic it looks, so there seems to be plenty of room in between faith and determinism for will, and many other possibilities to boot.
  - sysbin 7y ago
    That’s a common misconception of not understanding quantum physics and determinism. Do you want me to explain how quantum physics doesn’t change anything about you not having free will.
    - bdamm 7y ago
      Absolutely not. We don't even understand larger scale phenomenon such as turbulent flow in fluids, so there's no way we could understand the interaction between turbulent flow and quantum phenomenon in our brain. Given that gap, the insistence that physics provides the determinism that means all our outcomes are predetermined is just your desire to believe you know something.
      - sysbin 7y ago
        I assume you should read about determinism but you likely won't because you don't understand the underlining problem "how you're unable to have a will that's truly our own" and your writing appears to me that you're stubborn; and or unwilling to ever discover you don't have control that's truly your own by actually understanding determinism. Even if a thought (an external force) occurred that truly wasn't deterministic. You still would be shaped by it and from all the preceding forces exerted upon you playing a part as well. Furthermore, (non related) Quantum physics may just be local hidden variables and or another deterministic universe intertwined with our deterministic universe and making the results we're unable to measure appear random. Many people fear determinism and so they put so much faith into quantum physics without understanding how it doesn't change your outcome to be truly your own. We very well may be in a universe that's different than another and that has you & I never conversing because a deterministic system (outside our universe) is making "random occurrences" (that aren't really random) just not measurable in our lifetimes; thus making one universe verge off from another in the deterministic outcomes. That doesn't give us a will that's our own. Similar if we prayed to God for an event in our life to occur or not to happen. All the forces exerted upon us, up until us praying is what made the event occur and not even a God could have a will that's his/her own because any being is shaped by the events experienced. Simply, you cannot make a decision that wasn't effected by all the events (forces exerted upon you) that occurred against you in life. You're the product of what encompasses you and all the forces chain-back to the very beginning of life.
        bdamm 7y ago
        Sure, I don't believe in complete control either. But what benefit would it bring to believe that I have absolutely no control over my life? That would in fact be self-defeating, especially if it turns out that we do have some marginal amount of control. What a waste that would be! And if I believe that I have control (which itself isn't something I can control in your model) when in fact I don't, then why would that change anything about my life? What positive effect would this revelation of lack of control have? The only outcome of your belief system is to deny control when it does exist. I'll keep my belief system, thanks. If your philosophy works for you, keep on being an automaton dude. L8tr.

by bdamm 7y ago

sysbin 7y ago

Determinism isn't a limited view of physics. There are people who understand determinism and then there are people who prefer faith than understanding determinism.

bdamm 7y ago
The closer we look into quantum phenomena the less deterministic it looks, so there seems to be plenty of room in between faith and determinism for will, and many other possibilities to boot.
- sysbin 7y ago
  That’s a common misconception of not understanding quantum physics and determinism. Do you want me to explain how quantum physics doesn’t change anything about you not having free will.
  - bdamm 7y ago
    Absolutely not. We don't even understand larger scale phenomenon such as turbulent flow in fluids, so there's no way we could understand the interaction between turbulent flow and quantum phenomenon in our brain. Given that gap, the insistence that physics provides the determinism that means all our outcomes are predetermined is just your desire to believe you know something.
    - sysbin 7y ago
      I assume you should read about determinism but you likely won't because you don't understand the underlining problem "how you're unable to have a will that's truly our own" and your writing appears to me that you're stubborn; and or unwilling to ever discover you don't have control that's truly your own by actually understanding determinism. Even if a thought (an external force) occurred that truly wasn't deterministic. You still would be shaped by it and from all the preceding forces exerted upon you playing a part as well. Furthermore, (non related) Quantum physics may just be local hidden variables and or another deterministic universe intertwined with our deterministic universe and making the results we're unable to measure appear random. Many people fear determinism and so they put so much faith into quantum physics without understanding how it doesn't change your outcome to be truly your own. We very well may be in a universe that's different than another and that has you & I never conversing because a deterministic system (outside our universe) is making "random occurrences" (that aren't really random) just not measurable in our lifetimes; thus making one universe verge off from another in the deterministic outcomes. That doesn't give us a will that's our own. Similar if we prayed to God for an event in our life to occur or not to happen. All the forces exerted upon us, up until us praying is what made the event occur and not even a God could have a will that's his/her own because any being is shaped by the events experienced. Simply, you cannot make a decision that wasn't effected by all the events (forces exerted upon you) that occurred against you in life. You're the product of what encompasses you and all the forces chain-back to the very beginning of life.
      - bdamm 7y ago
        Sure, I don't believe in complete control either. But what benefit would it bring to believe that I have absolutely no control over my life? That would in fact be self-defeating, especially if it turns out that we do have some marginal amount of control. What a waste that would be! And if I believe that I have control (which itself isn't something I can control in your model) when in fact I don't, then why would that change anything about my life? What positive effect would this revelation of lack of control have? The only outcome of your belief system is to deny control when it does exist. I'll keep my belief system, thanks. If your philosophy works for you, keep on being an automaton dude. L8tr.