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Markets are most certainly top down. Markets don't exist without the nation state because they rely on nation state technology like money. In fact markets are e
by mempko 7y ago
Markets are most certainly top down. Markets don't exist without the nation state because they rely on nation state technology like money. In fact markets are explicitly created by governments.
Even within a market there is top down planning. What gets produced is decided by makers who use the feedback of the market to change what they make. The consumers usually have no say about what gets made and how it's made outside the narrow, low information way of the spot trade.
In othet words, people would not have created markets sans their explicit imposition by states. They are not a bottom up structure because no sane person would participate in them if they didn't have to.
Prior to markets were webs of debt relations. See 'Debt the first 5000 years' by David Graeber.
- nybble41 7y ago> Markets don't exist without the nation state because they rely on nation state technology like money. Both money and markets predate the nation-state. Markets are just people trading with each other. You get that naturally in any society with a concept of private property. People participate in them because the alternative is producing everything themselves and no one has the necessary skills to produce everything they might want. Money similarly develops on its own once the market grows complex enough to make the barter system inconvenient and people begin to practice indirect exchange with small set of universally marketable goods rather than trading directly for items they intend to use themselves.
- mempko 7y agoThat isn't the alternative. The alternative is people get in debt with each other, which is what happened historically. People simply didn't spot trade with their neighbors. The spot trade is a property of state created markets.
- nybble41 7y agoTrading in debt isn't an alternative to markets, it's a market with debt as the currency. Regardless, the "spot trade" as you put it is also older than nation-states, not something they created.
- mempko 7y agoI good book I suggest is Debt the First 5000 Years by David Graeber. It will blow your mind.
- nybble41 7y agoI've seen it, and didn't find it very convincing. Graeber presents some interesting anecdotes regarding selected ancient social conventions, which may or may not be accurate[1], but—in my opinion—even taken at face value they don't really support his conclusions regarding the nature of debt. Perhaps the book would seem more compelling to someone who already shares the author's worldview. [1] https://www.bradford-delong.com/2014/12/2014-11-24-mo-ann-leckie-on-david-graebers-debt-the-first-5000-mistakes-handling-the-sumerian-evidence-smackdown.html https://www.bradford-delong.com/2014/12/2014-11-24-mo-ann-le...
- Lapsed 7y ago>Markets don't exist without the nation state because they rely on nation state technology like money That's not true at all, in many cases markets exist in spite of nation states (think silk road and every other black market).
- mempko 7y agoAll of those came about after money, taxes, and state created markets came about. They are part of the whole. If you get rid of the state, the black markets will go away because taxes and money will go away.