9 ms·

At this point there's little to no difference between con, dark pattern and fraud. I'd like to see them prosecuted as such.

ryandrake 7y ago
Remember, for every software-based dark pattern or fraud out there, there was a software developer who implemented it. Before we throw stones, we, as a profession should get better about self-policing and cleaning our ethical house.
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  Funny how you get down voted for pointing the reality of the situation. Dark patterns would go away tomorrow if software developers really cared about it.
- paulryanrogers 7y ago
  How? With a union or guild?
  - noelsusman 7y ago
    I've only ever seen this accomplished with professional organizations and licensing. Medicine is the easiest example. Clinicians can push back on unethical requests by arguing that complying with a request would result in them losing their license. That gives the employee a lot more leverage.
    - jbay808 7y ago
      Engineers too, in Canada.
      - ghaff 7y ago
        There are professional engineers (PE) in the US as well. But the software engineering one has been discontinued because basically no one got it. You can get PEs in other fields of engineering. How common it is probably depends on the field and on the type of job. (Basically, you get a PE so that you can sign off on designs where regulators or other government agencies are involved--or want an official credential for e.g. being an expert witness/consultant.)
- learc83 7y ago
  When a building without enough exits burns down and kills 100 people, blaming the construction workers who built it isn't going to help anything. It's rare that it's developers who actually come up with these ideas, they're usually just employees implementing someone else's plan. Unless we're talking early startups--then there's a good chance the developer is responsible.
  - mathieuh 7y ago
    I would find somewhere else to work if I had ethical concerns over what they were asking me to do. For example, the UK’s department of work and pensions was a contract the company I work for had at the time when there was a huge furore over IDS (a politician)’s policies. If i had been assigned to work on that project I would have resigned.
    - wserjifowe 7y ago
      I think it's not going to be so obvious. If you write a feature that is intended to deceive then sure, but the developer who wrote that feature was probably told "ok, if the inventory is below a certain threshold, then add this behavior". The feature itself is benign. Should a developer resign anytime they can concoct a theoretical way in which a feature they're writing could possibly be exploited?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - chucksmash 7y ago
      It's hard to distinguish between something being explicitly shady and just a bad system though. "As a user, if I arrive on a booking page and the live API data shows our cached pricing data is stale, I expect the difference to be acknowledged." Developer implements animation callout and an approximate, non-technical explanation Cached pricing data continues to often be stale
      - 7y ago
- wserjifowe 7y ago
  I think things get murky with complex relationships that exist in industry. For example, I think it would be hard to argue that a company like Expedia or Priceline created a feature so their customers (hotels) could exploit it. Also, what leverage do you think a developer has in these sorts of situations? Should the developer say they're not willing to write the feature because it's possible customers could exploit it?
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Sure, but it usually comes from management on high, just as adding two dozen different tracking and adtech schemes to a single page does. I've walked away from job offers where I found at interview I really didn't like the smell from how they were making money. I also recognise a 25 year old me might not have had the financial luxury to do so, or to just say no to a boss asking. Were software a regulated profession like medicine or legal with an ethics body I'd be inclined to agree. Maybe it's time it was, but I suspect stronger consumer protection and treating dark patterns and policies as fraud would be a vastly cheaper route for all concerned.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    I’ve quit jobs partially over ethical issues with the software I was being asked to write. Once at around 25 years old and once at around 35. Since we have no powerful guild or professional organization with teeth, responsibility for our conduct is our own. Judging by the down-votes, though, heaven forbid you suggest on HN that a developer should take ethical responsibility for their own actions!
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Both the IEEE and ACM have codes of ethics. You don't need to have effectively a guild regulating entrance into a profession--which, if you take the requirements for a PE in other branches of engineering as a guide would probably exclude anyone without the appropriate degrees and other requirements--to have ethical standards.
    - jimktrains2 7y ago
      > if you take the requirements for a PE in other branches of engineering as a guide would probably exclude anyone without the appropriate degrees and other requirements--to have ethical standards. How would one know one is meeting ethical obligations if they havn't been educated. Password storage, for instance, it's not obvious to many people why plain-text password storage is bad -- it _still_ happens at companies to this very day. I'm all for people being able to code and do their own work, just like you should be able to build your own shed or house as long as it meets building codes. Maybe we need the equivalent of building codes (except not proprietary). The GDPR and the California Consumer Privacy Act are sort-of the start of that, I think.
- icebraining 7y ago
  Or we could stop seeing things as us Vs them. Having the same job title doesn't make me an accomplice of those developers.
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >there was a software developer who implemented it. Before we throw stones, we, as a profession should get better about self-policing and cleaning our ethical house. This would require self-reflection by a community who constantly denigrates Facebook and the like for their issues, but happily punch the clock and collect RSUs from the same companies. It's easier to simply blame your superiors.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  This is absurd on the face of it. Should mustache wearers self-police themselves after Hitler and Stalin wore mustaches? No, I share nothing with the guy who wrote the emissions cheating and I share nothing with the guy who wrote these dark patterns in. We both use the same wrench and we both call ourselves the same title, but he’s the bad guy. Or perhaps it’s clearer if we talk about Jewish people not self-policing Jewish bankers committing fraud, or Catholics with their child abuse, or perhaps Muslims with their bombing? Surely I’ve definitely opposed scamming just as much those people have.
- cronix 7y ago
  > Remember, for every software-based dark pattern or fraud out there, there was a software developer who implemented it I think you ended that sentence prematurely.... "..after their boss, marketing team, etc., told them to." I don't think I've ever met a dev who implements these things because they think it's a good idea.

ryandrake 7y ago

Remember, for every software-based dark pattern or fraud out there, there was a software developer who implemented it. Before we throw stones, we, as a profession should get better about self-policing and cleaning our ethical house.

pnw_hazor 7y ago
Funny how you get down voted for pointing the reality of the situation. Dark patterns would go away tomorrow if software developers really cared about it.
paulryanrogers 7y ago
How? With a union or guild?
- noelsusman 7y ago
  I've only ever seen this accomplished with professional organizations and licensing. Medicine is the easiest example. Clinicians can push back on unethical requests by arguing that complying with a request would result in them losing their license. That gives the employee a lot more leverage.
  - jbay808 7y ago
    Engineers too, in Canada.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      There are professional engineers (PE) in the US as well. But the software engineering one has been discontinued because basically no one got it. You can get PEs in other fields of engineering. How common it is probably depends on the field and on the type of job. (Basically, you get a PE so that you can sign off on designs where regulators or other government agencies are involved--or want an official credential for e.g. being an expert witness/consultant.)
learc83 7y ago
When a building without enough exits burns down and kills 100 people, blaming the construction workers who built it isn't going to help anything. It's rare that it's developers who actually come up with these ideas, they're usually just employees implementing someone else's plan. Unless we're talking early startups--then there's a good chance the developer is responsible.
- mathieuh 7y ago
  I would find somewhere else to work if I had ethical concerns over what they were asking me to do. For example, the UK’s department of work and pensions was a contract the company I work for had at the time when there was a huge furore over IDS (a politician)’s policies. If i had been assigned to work on that project I would have resigned.
  - wserjifowe 7y ago
    I think it's not going to be so obvious. If you write a feature that is intended to deceive then sure, but the developer who wrote that feature was probably told "ok, if the inventory is below a certain threshold, then add this behavior". The feature itself is benign. Should a developer resign anytime they can concoct a theoretical way in which a feature they're writing could possibly be exploited?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - chucksmash 7y ago
    It's hard to distinguish between something being explicitly shady and just a bad system though. "As a user, if I arrive on a booking page and the live API data shows our cached pricing data is stale, I expect the difference to be acknowledged." Developer implements animation callout and an approximate, non-technical explanation Cached pricing data continues to often be stale
    - 7y ago
wserjifowe 7y ago
I think things get murky with complex relationships that exist in industry. For example, I think it would be hard to argue that a company like Expedia or Priceline created a feature so their customers (hotels) could exploit it. Also, what leverage do you think a developer has in these sorts of situations? Should the developer say they're not willing to write the feature because it's possible customers could exploit it?
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Sure, but it usually comes from management on high, just as adding two dozen different tracking and adtech schemes to a single page does. I've walked away from job offers where I found at interview I really didn't like the smell from how they were making money. I also recognise a 25 year old me might not have had the financial luxury to do so, or to just say no to a boss asking. Were software a regulated profession like medicine or legal with an ethics body I'd be inclined to agree. Maybe it's time it was, but I suspect stronger consumer protection and treating dark patterns and policies as fraud would be a vastly cheaper route for all concerned.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  I’ve quit jobs partially over ethical issues with the software I was being asked to write. Once at around 25 years old and once at around 35. Since we have no powerful guild or professional organization with teeth, responsibility for our conduct is our own. Judging by the down-votes, though, heaven forbid you suggest on HN that a developer should take ethical responsibility for their own actions!
- ghaff 7y ago
  Both the IEEE and ACM have codes of ethics. You don't need to have effectively a guild regulating entrance into a profession--which, if you take the requirements for a PE in other branches of engineering as a guide would probably exclude anyone without the appropriate degrees and other requirements--to have ethical standards.
  - jimktrains2 7y ago
    > if you take the requirements for a PE in other branches of engineering as a guide would probably exclude anyone without the appropriate degrees and other requirements--to have ethical standards. How would one know one is meeting ethical obligations if they havn't been educated. Password storage, for instance, it's not obvious to many people why plain-text password storage is bad -- it _still_ happens at companies to this very day. I'm all for people being able to code and do their own work, just like you should be able to build your own shed or house as long as it meets building codes. Maybe we need the equivalent of building codes (except not proprietary). The GDPR and the California Consumer Privacy Act are sort-of the start of that, I think.
icebraining 7y ago
Or we could stop seeing things as us Vs them. Having the same job title doesn't make me an accomplice of those developers.
navigatesol 7y ago
>there was a software developer who implemented it. Before we throw stones, we, as a profession should get better about self-policing and cleaning our ethical house. This would require self-reflection by a community who constantly denigrates Facebook and the like for their issues, but happily punch the clock and collect RSUs from the same companies. It's easier to simply blame your superiors.
scarejunba 7y ago
This is absurd on the face of it. Should mustache wearers self-police themselves after Hitler and Stalin wore mustaches? No, I share nothing with the guy who wrote the emissions cheating and I share nothing with the guy who wrote these dark patterns in. We both use the same wrench and we both call ourselves the same title, but he’s the bad guy. Or perhaps it’s clearer if we talk about Jewish people not self-policing Jewish bankers committing fraud, or Catholics with their child abuse, or perhaps Muslims with their bombing? Surely I’ve definitely opposed scamming just as much those people have.
cronix 7y ago
> Remember, for every software-based dark pattern or fraud out there, there was a software developer who implemented it I think you ended that sentence prematurely.... "..after their boss, marketing team, etc., told them to." I don't think I've ever met a dev who implements these things because they think it's a good idea.