4 ms·

i would guess anyone that has googled tor, onion site, tails os, monero etc. would be on a list

by hi5eyes 7y ago

driverdan 7y ago
That doesn't make sense. You think Google is handing off data about all of these searches to the government?
- gloflo 7y ago
  You think the government does not have secret access to a surveillance system, developed in their own country, more widespread and ingrained into daily life than anything before?
  - freehunter 7y ago
    If that's the case though... what are they using it for? They haven't stopped mass shootings. They haven't stopped terrorism or bombings or domestic violence or child molesters. They never bring the evidence to court. There's zero indication they've done anything with the wide mass surveillance net they're supposed to have access to. So what is it there for?
    - fghtr 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance#Purposes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance#Purposes
      - fghtr 7y ago
        more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_States#Uses_of_intercepted_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite...
    - nexuist 7y ago
      Just to play devil's advocate, we don't know how many crimes have been stopped with these systems in place. It's entirely possible that it has foiled terrorist attacks in the past. Making it public (supposedly) would allow other people to figure out how to avoid it and reduce its effectiveness. Of course the alternative theory that it's there for control and manipulation is more likely.
      - jimbob45 7y ago
        Consider high school shootings alone. They've spiked since the NSA started their program in 2005. By your hypothesis, we're not seeing these invisibly stopped school shootings, which must be on an order of magnitude higher than what we're seeing to account for the spike since 2005. Either that or the NSA just isn't doing anything to stop these shootings. We may never know.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - CWuestefeld 7y ago
      From wikipedia: Parallel construction is a law enforcement process of building a parallel—or separate—evidentiary basis for a criminal investigation in order to conceal how an investigation actually began. In the US, a particular form is evidence laundering, where one police officer obtains evidence via means that are in violation of the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, and then passes it on to another officer, who builds on it and gets it accepted by the court under the good-faith exception as applied to the second officer. This practice gained support after the Supreme Court's 2009 Herring v. United States decision. ... In August 2013, a report by Reuters revealed that the Special Operations Division (SOD) of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration advises DEA agents to practice parallel construction when creating criminal cases against Americans that are based on NSA warrantless surveillance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
- hi5eyes 7y ago
  uhh possibly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)
  - vkou 7y ago
    Given its 200k buget (One developer-year), PRISM was exactly as it says on the tin. A web form for sending, and storing the results of Section 702 information requests. Those were targeted requests for user data. You can legitimately quibble over how precisely targeted they were, or whether there was a justifiable trail of evidence leading to a warrant. It, however, was not a mass surveillance system. You can't build a mass surveilance system on a 200k budget. You can't even integrate with one on a 200k budget.
- nonwifehaver3 7y ago
  We don't have to think too hard: "These variables define terms and websites relating to the TAILs (The Amnesic Incognito Live System) software program, a comsec mechanism advocated by extremists on extremist forums...this fingerprint identifies users searching for the TAILs (The Amnesic Incognito Live System) software program, viewing documents relating to TAILs, or viewing websites that detail TAILs." [1] Google said they stopped this with encryption, but even if true, and they have no gagged NSLs or just spies, your DNS and internet traffic still show connections to Tails website, directory servers, etc. [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/03/nsa_xkeyscore_stasi_scandal/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/03/nsa_xkeyscore_stasi...
- autoexec 7y ago
  > You think Google is handing off data about all of these searches to the government? Snowden's leaks showed the NSA collects data from google. Google would have no power to stop them from taking whatever they want and they seem to want everything. Lavabit tried to provide a service where everything was encrypted and secure but the government demanded they compromise the service so they could spy on people or shut down. They decided to shut down. You think our 3 letter agencies are shaking down small tech-savvy email providers while ignoring a target like Google? A company that is devoted to collecting our personal info?

i would guess anyone that has googled tor, onion site, tails os, monero etc. would be on a list

driverdan 7y ago

That doesn't make sense. You think Google is handing off data about all of these searches to the government?

gloflo 7y ago
You think the government does not have secret access to a surveillance system, developed in their own country, more widespread and ingrained into daily life than anything before?
- freehunter 7y ago
  If that's the case though... what are they using it for? They haven't stopped mass shootings. They haven't stopped terrorism or bombings or domestic violence or child molesters. They never bring the evidence to court. There's zero indication they've done anything with the wide mass surveillance net they're supposed to have access to. So what is it there for?
  - fghtr 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance#Purposes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance#Purposes
    - fghtr 7y ago
      more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_States#Uses_of_intercepted_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite...
  - nexuist 7y ago
    Just to play devil's advocate, we don't know how many crimes have been stopped with these systems in place. It's entirely possible that it has foiled terrorist attacks in the past. Making it public (supposedly) would allow other people to figure out how to avoid it and reduce its effectiveness. Of course the alternative theory that it's there for control and manipulation is more likely.
    - jimbob45 7y ago
      Consider high school shootings alone. They've spiked since the NSA started their program in 2005. By your hypothesis, we're not seeing these invisibly stopped school shootings, which must be on an order of magnitude higher than what we're seeing to account for the spike since 2005. Either that or the NSA just isn't doing anything to stop these shootings. We may never know.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - CWuestefeld 7y ago
    From wikipedia: Parallel construction is a law enforcement process of building a parallel—or separate—evidentiary basis for a criminal investigation in order to conceal how an investigation actually began. In the US, a particular form is evidence laundering, where one police officer obtains evidence via means that are in violation of the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, and then passes it on to another officer, who builds on it and gets it accepted by the court under the good-faith exception as applied to the second officer. This practice gained support after the Supreme Court's 2009 Herring v. United States decision. ... In August 2013, a report by Reuters revealed that the Special Operations Division (SOD) of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration advises DEA agents to practice parallel construction when creating criminal cases against Americans that are based on NSA warrantless surveillance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
hi5eyes 7y ago
uhh possibly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)
- vkou 7y ago
  Given its 200k buget (One developer-year), PRISM was exactly as it says on the tin. A web form for sending, and storing the results of Section 702 information requests. Those were targeted requests for user data. You can legitimately quibble over how precisely targeted they were, or whether there was a justifiable trail of evidence leading to a warrant. It, however, was not a mass surveillance system. You can't build a mass surveilance system on a 200k budget. You can't even integrate with one on a 200k budget.
nonwifehaver3 7y ago
We don't have to think too hard: "These variables define terms and websites relating to the TAILs (The Amnesic Incognito Live System) software program, a comsec mechanism advocated by extremists on extremist forums...this fingerprint identifies users searching for the TAILs (The Amnesic Incognito Live System) software program, viewing documents relating to TAILs, or viewing websites that detail TAILs." [1] Google said they stopped this with encryption, but even if true, and they have no gagged NSLs or just spies, your DNS and internet traffic still show connections to Tails website, directory servers, etc. [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/03/nsa_xkeyscore_stasi_scandal/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/03/nsa_xkeyscore_stasi...
autoexec 7y ago
> You think Google is handing off data about all of these searches to the government? Snowden's leaks showed the NSA collects data from google. Google would have no power to stop them from taking whatever they want and they seem to want everything. Lavabit tried to provide a service where everything was encrypted and secure but the government demanded they compromise the service so they could spy on people or shut down. They decided to shut down. You think our 3 letter agencies are shaking down small tech-savvy email providers while ignoring a target like Google? A company that is devoted to collecting our personal info?