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All prohibition is asinine but this has to take the cake. Even if there is no way to prevent more kids from getting addicted to vaping (and that's a big if), h

All prohibition is asinine but this has to take the cake. Even if there is no way to prevent more kids from getting addicted to vaping (and that's a big if), having less kids and many less adults smoking cigarettes is such a huge win for public health. -- Anecdotally I went from 2 packs a day to chain vaping for a few years, health improved enough to start being much more active, finally weaned down nicotine, quitting vaping was hard but not near as yard as other cigarette quits, have been nicotine free for almost a year (not even a puff) and now I avg about 10+ miles a week running and 50+ miles a week biking and am in the best shape of my life at almost-40.

munk-a 7y ago
I am happy that's worked out for you - and e-cigs are definitely less dangerous than conventional cigarettes, but the adoption rate of smoking among younger folks has spiked since flavoured e-cigs were introduced. I really want vapes to be available as an alternative to conventional smoking but the companies pushing them now are addicting a lot of new users, if the market participants were more responsible these devices could have been all positive.
- lovecg 7y ago
  I can easily see that being the case, but can you point to some references with these numbers?
  - jonahhorowitz 7y ago
    From the Surgeon General: > E-cigarette use among U.S. youth and young adults is now a major public health concern. E-cigarette use has increased considerably in recent years, growing an astounding 900% among high school students from 2011 to 2015. [0] [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/sgr/e-cigarettes/pdfs/2016_sgr_entire_report_508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/sgr/e-cigarettes...
    - stefan_ 7y ago
      Well, a major public health concern right next to fast food. That's about the level of harm we're talking here.
    - markrages 7y ago
      This growth percentage is for E-cigarettes, not for smoking. And when were E-cigs invented anyway? Comparing against 2011 may be a way to get big percentage numbers, without describing much about prevalence.
      - jonahhorowitz 7y ago
        > About 4.9 million middle and high school students were current users (used in the past 30 days) of some type of tobacco product in 2018, up from 3.6 million in 2017. [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/p0211-youth-tobacco-use-increased.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/p0211-youth-tobacco-...
        wahern 7y ago
        The 30-day prevalence for vaping use is about the same as for marijuana. See https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/marijuana https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/marijuana (TL;DR: 5.60%, 16.70%, and 22.20% for 8th, 10th, and 12th graders, respectively, for 2018.) And despite the scary stories, it seems reported vaping use hasn't sharply risen. It peaked in 2015, substantially declined in 2017, and for 2018 seems to have returned to 2015 levels. But overall vaping use has at worst replaced cigarette smoking and possibly accelerated the long-term decline in smoking. A recent study, https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2018/10/31/tobaccocontrol-2018-054446 https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2018/10/31/toba..., concludes > If our primary concern is population-level trends in youth and young adult smoking, which we believe is appropriate, then vaping has not shown to be a serious cause for concern, even if the catalyst hypothesis is correct, and it is possible that vaping may be playing a contributing role to the recent steep declines in youth and young adult smoking. The anti-vaping hysteria is irresponsible and to the extent it ignores the data and creates a boogeyman out of unknowns it's anti-science. Compared to the parade of horribles consequent to tobacco use and even marijuana use, not to mention alcohol and other drugs, nicotine itself should be the least of our worries. And that's before we even consider the efficacy of a ban in terms of preventing teen vaping. (And if we as a community could manage to have an adult conversation about nicotine, like we briefly did for THC, we might appreciate the benefits of nicotine--e.g. that it's used by a significant fraction of adults and teens alike to self-medicate real behavioral and mental health problems.)
- pewpewlasergun 7y ago
  do you have a source?
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  There has been an increase in vaping, but the health benefits of vaping instead of smoking are so large that they swamp the ill health effects from increased vaping unless you get 20 new vapers for each person who quits smoking. In this debate people really underestimate how bad smoking is for you. UK NHS estimates e-cigarettes about 95% less damaging than smoking. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-quit-smoking-cigarettes-health-nhs-lung-damage-cancer-tobacco-a8701506.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-quit-smokin...
  - ladberg 7y ago
    Anecdotally, I (as a college student) know more than 20x the number of people who vape than people who smoke. Smoking is bad, but vaping is becoming incredibly mainstream with young people to the point where it's a bigger health risk.
    - ses1984 7y ago
      I don't know if you realize how mainstream smoking was. Everyone did it. Eeeeeveryone. I have a feeling most of your college friends will grow out of vaping.
      - ladberg 7y ago
        I get that everyone smoking is way worse than everyone vaping, but nowadays smoking (cigarettes) isn't popular at all. Even without vaping claiming some of the would-be smokers, I doubt a significant portion of my generation would smoke. Of course, I'm also biased by having only lived in LA and the Bay Area where I bet smoking is less prevalent than other parts of the country.
    - JamesBarney 7y ago
      Some of those vapers would have been smokers. And the smoking rate for youth never got close to being below 5%. Huff post says that in 2011 it was 16% for youth. So if you know 20-30x vapers than smokers that's incredible evidence that vaping is reducing the number of smokers dramatically. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cigarette-smoking-decline_n_6855468 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cigarette-smoking-decline_n_6... For some historical context when I started college in mid 2000's 20-30% of the people I knew smoked.
- qes 7y ago
  > the adoption rate of smoking among younger folks has spiked since flavoured e-cigs were introduced Are you calling vaping "smoking"? Because that would be disingenuous. Also you may as well just say "since e-cigs were introduced" since there was never a time that they weren't flavored.
  - munk-a 7y ago
    I am calling it smoking, "vaping" is a euphemism that just recently entered the language in an effort to rebrand the action of smoking because being "a smoker" now has a negative connotation. "Smoking" has never been a literal description of that action - the literal description is "inhaling tobacco" which is still occurring. The fact that using e-cigarettes is viewed as a more healthy way for smokers to continue their habit sort of puts the nail in the coffin in terms of word meanings.
    - driverdan 7y ago
      What are you talking about? Smoking is inhaling the smoke of a burned product. Vaping is not. It's not comparable. The bad part of smoking tobacco is not the nicotine, it's all of the terrible health effects of inhaling smoke. Other than addiction nicotine has very few negative health effects.
      - munk-a 7y ago
        There are health effects of e-cigarettes aren't fully known but there are well known health risks associated with tobacco aside from the ash (which still can be present in mis-tuned vapes but is greatly reduced), see this other comment[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20280258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20280258
    - function_seven 7y ago
      There is no tobacco in the e-cigs. The inhalants are liquid droplets that are about 10 times larger than the smoke particles they replace. They do far less damage to the lungs, and deliver a tiny fraction of the carcinogens that smoking does. Vaping isn't a euphemism. It's really a different thing altogether. In fact, I euphemize it back to "smoking" because I hate the term "vaping". It sounds so lame.
- sundvor 7y ago
  As a non-smoker who can't stand the smell, and hate smoking with a passion, I for one would rather people vape all day. At least it's only affecting their health then. But yeah, banning all of it (with priority on getting rid of the real cigarettes that cause others' harm) in public spaces would be my preference.
  - munk-a 7y ago
    It actually isn't, if their vape is mis-tuned and producing ash you're inhaling it the same as you would second hand smoke - additionally the health dangers of vape fluid aren't fully understood, a lot of the chemicals that contribute to the carcinogenous natural of tobacco smoking are still present in e-cigs but at generally lower levels. The misinformation that's going around is basically "No one has had time to conduct a long term study and prove it's dangerous so it must be safe!"
    - function_seven 7y ago
      > if their vape is mis-tuned and producing ash That's not a thing. Are you thinking of heated vaporization of tobacco leaf? Because what "vaping" is today is a liquid that's atomized by a heating element, not solid matter. There can't be ash from glycerin and propelyne glycol
      - casiotone 7y ago
        It's technically possible for the wick and the VOCs in the flavorings to burn in a vape that reaches too high a temperature. However: the exposure to VOC is vastly less than you would receive when, say, standing over a wok preparing stir fry. It should be noted that many vapes, including Juul, use temperature regulation and it's highly unlikely that they would produce a burnt wick.
- r00fus 7y ago
  I work with someone who's crusaded against e-cigs and part of the reason the ban was put in place was that JUUL was making kid-desired flavors like "candy corn" and "unicorn milk". E-cigs are essentially a very addictive substance (Nicotine) and a bunch of unregulated (and unreported) substances + flavor. They're also disguised as usb-keys and hard to detect (not like a cigarette). I'm sure SF lobbied with JUUL before laying down the ban-hammer.
  - objectivetruth 7y ago
    >JUUL was making kid-desired flavors like "candy corn" and "unicorn milk". No, that's incorrect. Juul manufactured "Fruit Medley" and "Mango," both of which are now restricted to online-only sales through their age-verification platform. There are thousands of other vendors who sell sweet-flavored nicotine solutions, though. I also fundamentally disagree that only children like sweet flavors, and I wonder why fruit-flavored ciders and liqueurs are still legal. >E-cigs are essentially a very addictive substance (Nicotine) and a bunch of unregulated (and unreported) substances + flavor. So are regular cigarettes. But regular cigarettes also include the inhalation of a significant amount of tar. >They're also disguised as usb-keys and hard to detect (not like a cigarette). It's not a disguise. When first released, Juul's form factor was fairly distinctive but there are a wide variety of commercial e-cigarette form factors now. I'm also not sure what "hard to detect" has to do with anything -- by who, when, in what context? >I'm sure SF lobbied with JUUL before laying down the ban-hammer. What does this mean? The phrasing is usually "Company X lobbied Politician Y" or "Company X hired a lobbyist to lobby members of Legislature Z."
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    I vape, used to smoke 20 a day quit for 7 years, started again and then switched to a vape. JUUL absolutely should be banned from marketing at children, it’s blatantly obvious they know what they are doing. I’m generally not in favour of legislation because it often either doesn’t work or has bad 2nd order effects but this is one of those cases I’d make an exception for. Over here in the UK they limited the max strength of vape fluid to 18mg (previously 24mg was common) and reduced the max tank size (I kept my old one as the they are where interchangeable). It remains to be seen what effect if any that has though.
- kortilla 7y ago
  Smoking isn’t vaping.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  Let's play devil's advocate. Where's the proof that e-cigarettes are harmful? We have mountains of evidence that cigarettes are one of the most harmful habits one can do. Do we have proof e-cigs cause lung cancer, or other types of cancer? COPD? asthma? no, we do not. edit: people seem to be very downvote-happy on this site when they disagree with something. Combustion of tobacco produces polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) which are heavily carcinogenic. Vaporization of nicotine does NOT produce these compounds. Additionally the UK Government claims that e-cigarettes are 95% less harmful than tobacco cigarettes, suggesting they are less damaging than junk food, soda, or car exhaust. Why not ban coca-cola and real cigarettes besides ecig?
  - sureaboutthis 7y ago
    "The nicotine in e-cigarettes and regular cigarettes is addictive. E-cigarettes are considered tobacco products because most of them contain nicotine, which comes from tobacco. Besides nicotine, e-cigarettes can contain harmful and potentially harmful ingredients, including: >ultrafine particles that can be inhaled deep into the lungs >flavorants such as diacetyl, a chemical linked to serious lung disease >volatile organic compounds >heavy metals, such as nickel, tin, and lead" https://e-cigarettes.surgeongeneral.gov/ https://e-cigarettes.surgeongeneral.gov/
    - oarabbus_ 7y ago
      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-quit-smoking-cigarettes-health-nhs-lung-damage-cancer-tobacco-a8701506.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-quit-smokin... UK government claims ecigs are far, far less harmful than tobacco cigarettes.
      - sureaboutthis 7y ago
        "...some water vapour on it and very slight discolouration from the colouring in the e-liquid." "Research estimates that, while not risk-free..." Less harmful but harmful nonetheless. Not without risk. Contaminants and other unnatural elements are introduced into the lungs. Vaping is harmful, too.
- hackinthebochs 7y ago
  >but the adoption rate of smoking among younger folks has spiked since flavoured e-cigs were introduced. People cite this as if its the end of the justification for legislative action. No, it's merely the beginning of the argument. So the rate of e-cig usage is growing rapidly among teens. Why should I care?
  - freedomben 7y ago
    Yes, thank you. Almost everyone seems to think that's it's self evident why vaping/smoking is immoral and must be stopped. I personally see nothing wrong with it. Having healthier options (vaping) seems like a huge win for everyone involved. Can we just stop meddling in eveyrbody elses business? “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” -- CS Lewis
hinkley 7y ago
You don't sound like you're overdoing it, but get yourself screened for atrial fib. Family member finally quit smoking to ride more, went a little too gung-ho on endurance and developed an afib. He couldn't take blood thinners due to arthritis meds. Mixing those is apparently worse than your stroke risk. But he lost that lottery and threw a clot a few years ago and things were pretty bad.
- llamataboot 7y ago
  Had a full work up. Lungs are "undistinguishable from a non smoker" in terms of capacity. Heart rhythm is normal and RHR has dropped from 90s as a smoking coder that sat a lot to the 60s as a non-smoking coder that moves a lot more (Thanks apple watch!). HRV has gone from 20s to 60s-70s in the past year. VO2 Max (at least from Apple Watch) has gone from about low 30s to low 40s in a year which puts me at good, but not yet super in shape for a 40 year old.
slg 7y ago
Would you support methadone being freely available over the counter? After all, it is a valuable tool in helping get people off more dangerous opioids.
- llamataboot 7y ago
  I support and advocate for 100% across the board drug decriminalization, so prob not the best one to ask.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- Nacraile 7y ago
  Would you support methadone being banned while heroin is available over the counter? Because that's the proper equivalent comparison to the e-cig policy.
  - slg 7y ago
    It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. I would be perfectly fine if cities also wanted to make it harder to buy heroin/traditional cigarettes.
- lozaning 7y ago
  As per the NPR program I heard last night, this is already the case in SF. Info for those interested here: https://harmreduction.org/issues/overdose-prevention/dope-sf/ https://harmreduction.org/issues/overdose-prevention/dope-sf...
  - slg 7y ago
    They are providing a drug to treat overdoses which is an entirely different thing than a drug that is used to ease someone out of a chemical addiction. There are different priorities when someone is minutes from dying rather being addicted to a deadly substance that might take years to kill them.
joshanderson 7y ago
The problem with ecigs is that they are way more polluting than regular cigarettes, due to all the plastic cartridges from the liquid and the batteries in the ecig devices. So regardless of anything else, it’s good that ecigs are banned as much as possible.
- bjackman 7y ago
  This is only a problem with the cheaper Zuul-style units, which use disposable parts with vendor lock-in. Even with those, I'd not automatically believe that they are more polluting than cigarette butts.
  - joshanderson 7y ago
    Most ecigs are the cheaper disposable kind.
    - Forbo 7y ago
      The vast majority of people I know that vape use refillable tanks. Is there some source you can point to that backs up the "most" claim?
      - joshanderson 7y ago
        You want to assume whatever is best for the environment. Worst case, if the assumption is wrong, we are preventing more pollution.
sureaboutthis 7y ago
When I broke up with my last girlfriend, she said one of the best things I ever did for her was get her to quit smoking. Now things taste better, she smells things better, and she's not huffing after climbing the stairs.
sonnyblarney 7y ago
"having less kids and many less adults smoking cigarettes is such a huge win for public health." It's not about quitting anymore though. It's way beyond that. Vaping is incredibly addictive, and because it's 'not smoking' and Juul is marketing it as 'cool' - it's massively taking over. While vaping is obviously better than smoking, it has odd side effects due to the fact it's not, for example, I found myself vaping all the time, as opposed to just 'smoke breaks'. Understand a few things: 1) Marketing works 2) Trends are real 3) Young people are very impressionable 4) The earlier addiction happens, the more life-long issues it causes 5) Critical masses are real: 5 kids in a high school doing it may not flip the school, but 25 might be enough and flip it into 1/2 the school 6) Supply and Demand is real. Make things harder to get, more expensive, higher barriers, the less people do it, the less likely there is to be a 'tipping point' collective behaviour. I don't think they should have banned it, but they should totally ban all forms of advertising and promotion, there should be relatively high taxes on it, health warnings, and they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a school. At least if the kids can go all day without vaping, they might not fall into a hole. In Canada, vaping among teenagers has increased 75% in one year this is quite a substantial thing to worry about. [1] [1] http://www.cancer.ca/en/about-us/for-media/media-releases/national/2019/youth-vaping/?region=qc http://www.cancer.ca/en/about-us/for-media/media-releases/na...

munk-a 7y ago

I am happy that's worked out for you - and e-cigs are definitely less dangerous than conventional cigarettes, but the adoption rate of smoking among younger folks has spiked since flavoured e-cigs were introduced. I really want vapes to be available as an alternative to conventional smoking but the companies pushing them now are addicting a lot of new users, if the market participants were more responsible these devices could have been all positive.

lovecg 7y ago
I can easily see that being the case, but can you point to some references with these numbers?
- jonahhorowitz 7y ago
  From the Surgeon General: > E-cigarette use among U.S. youth and young adults is now a major public health concern. E-cigarette use has increased considerably in recent years, growing an astounding 900% among high school students from 2011 to 2015. [0] [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/sgr/e-cigarettes/pdfs/2016_sgr_entire_report_508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/sgr/e-cigarettes...
  - stefan_ 7y ago
    Well, a major public health concern right next to fast food. That's about the level of harm we're talking here.
  - markrages 7y ago
    This growth percentage is for E-cigarettes, not for smoking. And when were E-cigs invented anyway? Comparing against 2011 may be a way to get big percentage numbers, without describing much about prevalence.
    - jonahhorowitz 7y ago
      > About 4.9 million middle and high school students were current users (used in the past 30 days) of some type of tobacco product in 2018, up from 3.6 million in 2017. [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/p0211-youth-tobacco-use-increased.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/p0211-youth-tobacco-...
      - wahern 7y ago
        The 30-day prevalence for vaping use is about the same as for marijuana. See https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/marijuana https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/marijuana (TL;DR: 5.60%, 16.70%, and 22.20% for 8th, 10th, and 12th graders, respectively, for 2018.) And despite the scary stories, it seems reported vaping use hasn't sharply risen. It peaked in 2015, substantially declined in 2017, and for 2018 seems to have returned to 2015 levels. But overall vaping use has at worst replaced cigarette smoking and possibly accelerated the long-term decline in smoking. A recent study, https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2018/10/31/tobaccocontrol-2018-054446 https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2018/10/31/toba..., concludes > If our primary concern is population-level trends in youth and young adult smoking, which we believe is appropriate, then vaping has not shown to be a serious cause for concern, even if the catalyst hypothesis is correct, and it is possible that vaping may be playing a contributing role to the recent steep declines in youth and young adult smoking. The anti-vaping hysteria is irresponsible and to the extent it ignores the data and creates a boogeyman out of unknowns it's anti-science. Compared to the parade of horribles consequent to tobacco use and even marijuana use, not to mention alcohol and other drugs, nicotine itself should be the least of our worries. And that's before we even consider the efficacy of a ban in terms of preventing teen vaping. (And if we as a community could manage to have an adult conversation about nicotine, like we briefly did for THC, we might appreciate the benefits of nicotine--e.g. that it's used by a significant fraction of adults and teens alike to self-medicate real behavioral and mental health problems.)
pewpewlasergun 7y ago
do you have a source?
JamesBarney 7y ago
There has been an increase in vaping, but the health benefits of vaping instead of smoking are so large that they swamp the ill health effects from increased vaping unless you get 20 new vapers for each person who quits smoking. In this debate people really underestimate how bad smoking is for you. UK NHS estimates e-cigarettes about 95% less damaging than smoking. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-quit-smoking-cigarettes-health-nhs-lung-damage-cancer-tobacco-a8701506.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-quit-smokin...
- ladberg 7y ago
  Anecdotally, I (as a college student) know more than 20x the number of people who vape than people who smoke. Smoking is bad, but vaping is becoming incredibly mainstream with young people to the point where it's a bigger health risk.
  - ses1984 7y ago
    I don't know if you realize how mainstream smoking was. Everyone did it. Eeeeeveryone. I have a feeling most of your college friends will grow out of vaping.
    - ladberg 7y ago
      I get that everyone smoking is way worse than everyone vaping, but nowadays smoking (cigarettes) isn't popular at all. Even without vaping claiming some of the would-be smokers, I doubt a significant portion of my generation would smoke. Of course, I'm also biased by having only lived in LA and the Bay Area where I bet smoking is less prevalent than other parts of the country.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    Some of those vapers would have been smokers. And the smoking rate for youth never got close to being below 5%. Huff post says that in 2011 it was 16% for youth. So if you know 20-30x vapers than smokers that's incredible evidence that vaping is reducing the number of smokers dramatically. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cigarette-smoking-decline_n_6855468 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cigarette-smoking-decline_n_6... For some historical context when I started college in mid 2000's 20-30% of the people I knew smoked.
qes 7y ago
> the adoption rate of smoking among younger folks has spiked since flavoured e-cigs were introduced Are you calling vaping "smoking"? Because that would be disingenuous. Also you may as well just say "since e-cigs were introduced" since there was never a time that they weren't flavored.
- munk-a 7y ago
  I am calling it smoking, "vaping" is a euphemism that just recently entered the language in an effort to rebrand the action of smoking because being "a smoker" now has a negative connotation. "Smoking" has never been a literal description of that action - the literal description is "inhaling tobacco" which is still occurring. The fact that using e-cigarettes is viewed as a more healthy way for smokers to continue their habit sort of puts the nail in the coffin in terms of word meanings.
  - driverdan 7y ago
    What are you talking about? Smoking is inhaling the smoke of a burned product. Vaping is not. It's not comparable. The bad part of smoking tobacco is not the nicotine, it's all of the terrible health effects of inhaling smoke. Other than addiction nicotine has very few negative health effects.
    - munk-a 7y ago
      There are health effects of e-cigarettes aren't fully known but there are well known health risks associated with tobacco aside from the ash (which still can be present in mis-tuned vapes but is greatly reduced), see this other comment[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20280258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20280258
  - function_seven 7y ago
    There is no tobacco in the e-cigs. The inhalants are liquid droplets that are about 10 times larger than the smoke particles they replace. They do far less damage to the lungs, and deliver a tiny fraction of the carcinogens that smoking does. Vaping isn't a euphemism. It's really a different thing altogether. In fact, I euphemize it back to "smoking" because I hate the term "vaping". It sounds so lame.
sundvor 7y ago
As a non-smoker who can't stand the smell, and hate smoking with a passion, I for one would rather people vape all day. At least it's only affecting their health then. But yeah, banning all of it (with priority on getting rid of the real cigarettes that cause others' harm) in public spaces would be my preference.
- munk-a 7y ago
  It actually isn't, if their vape is mis-tuned and producing ash you're inhaling it the same as you would second hand smoke - additionally the health dangers of vape fluid aren't fully understood, a lot of the chemicals that contribute to the carcinogenous natural of tobacco smoking are still present in e-cigs but at generally lower levels. The misinformation that's going around is basically "No one has had time to conduct a long term study and prove it's dangerous so it must be safe!"
  - function_seven 7y ago
    > if their vape is mis-tuned and producing ash That's not a thing. Are you thinking of heated vaporization of tobacco leaf? Because what "vaping" is today is a liquid that's atomized by a heating element, not solid matter. There can't be ash from glycerin and propelyne glycol
    - casiotone 7y ago
      It's technically possible for the wick and the VOCs in the flavorings to burn in a vape that reaches too high a temperature. However: the exposure to VOC is vastly less than you would receive when, say, standing over a wok preparing stir fry. It should be noted that many vapes, including Juul, use temperature regulation and it's highly unlikely that they would produce a burnt wick.
r00fus 7y ago
I work with someone who's crusaded against e-cigs and part of the reason the ban was put in place was that JUUL was making kid-desired flavors like "candy corn" and "unicorn milk". E-cigs are essentially a very addictive substance (Nicotine) and a bunch of unregulated (and unreported) substances + flavor. They're also disguised as usb-keys and hard to detect (not like a cigarette). I'm sure SF lobbied with JUUL before laying down the ban-hammer.
- objectivetruth 7y ago
  >JUUL was making kid-desired flavors like "candy corn" and "unicorn milk". No, that's incorrect. Juul manufactured "Fruit Medley" and "Mango," both of which are now restricted to online-only sales through their age-verification platform. There are thousands of other vendors who sell sweet-flavored nicotine solutions, though. I also fundamentally disagree that only children like sweet flavors, and I wonder why fruit-flavored ciders and liqueurs are still legal. >E-cigs are essentially a very addictive substance (Nicotine) and a bunch of unregulated (and unreported) substances + flavor. So are regular cigarettes. But regular cigarettes also include the inhalation of a significant amount of tar. >They're also disguised as usb-keys and hard to detect (not like a cigarette). It's not a disguise. When first released, Juul's form factor was fairly distinctive but there are a wide variety of commercial e-cigarette form factors now. I'm also not sure what "hard to detect" has to do with anything -- by who, when, in what context? >I'm sure SF lobbied with JUUL before laying down the ban-hammer. What does this mean? The phrasing is usually "Company X lobbied Politician Y" or "Company X hired a lobbyist to lobby members of Legislature Z."
- noir_lord 7y ago
  I vape, used to smoke 20 a day quit for 7 years, started again and then switched to a vape. JUUL absolutely should be banned from marketing at children, it’s blatantly obvious they know what they are doing. I’m generally not in favour of legislation because it often either doesn’t work or has bad 2nd order effects but this is one of those cases I’d make an exception for. Over here in the UK they limited the max strength of vape fluid to 18mg (previously 24mg was common) and reduced the max tank size (I kept my old one as the they are where interchangeable). It remains to be seen what effect if any that has though.
kortilla 7y ago
Smoking isn’t vaping.
oarabbus_ 7y ago
Let's play devil's advocate. Where's the proof that e-cigarettes are harmful? We have mountains of evidence that cigarettes are one of the most harmful habits one can do. Do we have proof e-cigs cause lung cancer, or other types of cancer? COPD? asthma? no, we do not. edit: people seem to be very downvote-happy on this site when they disagree with something. Combustion of tobacco produces polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) which are heavily carcinogenic. Vaporization of nicotine does NOT produce these compounds. Additionally the UK Government claims that e-cigarettes are 95% less harmful than tobacco cigarettes, suggesting they are less damaging than junk food, soda, or car exhaust. Why not ban coca-cola and real cigarettes besides ecig?
- sureaboutthis 7y ago
  "The nicotine in e-cigarettes and regular cigarettes is addictive. E-cigarettes are considered tobacco products because most of them contain nicotine, which comes from tobacco. Besides nicotine, e-cigarettes can contain harmful and potentially harmful ingredients, including: >ultrafine particles that can be inhaled deep into the lungs >flavorants such as diacetyl, a chemical linked to serious lung disease >volatile organic compounds >heavy metals, such as nickel, tin, and lead" https://e-cigarettes.surgeongeneral.gov/ https://e-cigarettes.surgeongeneral.gov/
  - oarabbus_ 7y ago
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-quit-smoking-cigarettes-health-nhs-lung-damage-cancer-tobacco-a8701506.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-quit-smokin... UK government claims ecigs are far, far less harmful than tobacco cigarettes.
    - sureaboutthis 7y ago
      "...some water vapour on it and very slight discolouration from the colouring in the e-liquid." "Research estimates that, while not risk-free..." Less harmful but harmful nonetheless. Not without risk. Contaminants and other unnatural elements are introduced into the lungs. Vaping is harmful, too.
hackinthebochs 7y ago
>but the adoption rate of smoking among younger folks has spiked since flavoured e-cigs were introduced. People cite this as if its the end of the justification for legislative action. No, it's merely the beginning of the argument. So the rate of e-cig usage is growing rapidly among teens. Why should I care?
- freedomben 7y ago
  Yes, thank you. Almost everyone seems to think that's it's self evident why vaping/smoking is immoral and must be stopped. I personally see nothing wrong with it. Having healthier options (vaping) seems like a huge win for everyone involved. Can we just stop meddling in eveyrbody elses business? “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” -- CS Lewis

hinkley 7y ago

You don't sound like you're overdoing it, but get yourself screened for atrial fib. Family member finally quit smoking to ride more, went a little too gung-ho on endurance and developed an afib. He couldn't take blood thinners due to arthritis meds. Mixing those is apparently worse than your stroke risk. But he lost that lottery and threw a clot a few years ago and things were pretty bad.

llamataboot 7y ago
Had a full work up. Lungs are "undistinguishable from a non smoker" in terms of capacity. Heart rhythm is normal and RHR has dropped from 90s as a smoking coder that sat a lot to the 60s as a non-smoking coder that moves a lot more (Thanks apple watch!). HRV has gone from 20s to 60s-70s in the past year. VO2 Max (at least from Apple Watch) has gone from about low 30s to low 40s in a year which puts me at good, but not yet super in shape for a 40 year old.

slg 7y ago

Would you support methadone being freely available over the counter? After all, it is a valuable tool in helping get people off more dangerous opioids.

llamataboot 7y ago
I support and advocate for 100% across the board drug decriminalization, so prob not the best one to ask.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Nacraile 7y ago
Would you support methadone being banned while heroin is available over the counter? Because that's the proper equivalent comparison to the e-cig policy.
- slg 7y ago
  It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. I would be perfectly fine if cities also wanted to make it harder to buy heroin/traditional cigarettes.
lozaning 7y ago
As per the NPR program I heard last night, this is already the case in SF. Info for those interested here: https://harmreduction.org/issues/overdose-prevention/dope-sf/ https://harmreduction.org/issues/overdose-prevention/dope-sf...
- slg 7y ago
  They are providing a drug to treat overdoses which is an entirely different thing than a drug that is used to ease someone out of a chemical addiction. There are different priorities when someone is minutes from dying rather being addicted to a deadly substance that might take years to kill them.

joshanderson 7y ago

The problem with ecigs is that they are way more polluting than regular cigarettes, due to all the plastic cartridges from the liquid and the batteries in the ecig devices. So regardless of anything else, it’s good that ecigs are banned as much as possible.

bjackman 7y ago
This is only a problem with the cheaper Zuul-style units, which use disposable parts with vendor lock-in. Even with those, I'd not automatically believe that they are more polluting than cigarette butts.
- joshanderson 7y ago
  Most ecigs are the cheaper disposable kind.
  - Forbo 7y ago
    The vast majority of people I know that vape use refillable tanks. Is there some source you can point to that backs up the "most" claim?
    - joshanderson 7y ago
      You want to assume whatever is best for the environment. Worst case, if the assumption is wrong, we are preventing more pollution.

sureaboutthis 7y ago

When I broke up with my last girlfriend, she said one of the best things I ever did for her was get her to quit smoking. Now things taste better, she smells things better, and she's not huffing after climbing the stairs.

sonnyblarney 7y ago

"having less kids and many less adults smoking cigarettes is such a huge win for public health." It's not about quitting anymore though. It's way beyond that. Vaping is incredibly addictive, and because it's 'not smoking' and Juul is marketing it as 'cool' - it's massively taking over. While vaping is obviously better than smoking, it has odd side effects due to the fact it's not, for example, I found myself vaping all the time, as opposed to just 'smoke breaks'. Understand a few things: 1) Marketing works 2) Trends are real 3) Young people are very impressionable 4) The earlier addiction happens, the more life-long issues it causes 5) Critical masses are real: 5 kids in a high school doing it may not flip the school, but 25 might be enough and flip it into 1/2 the school 6) Supply and Demand is real. Make things harder to get, more expensive, higher barriers, the less people do it, the less likely there is to be a 'tipping point' collective behaviour. I don't think they should have banned it, but they should totally ban all forms of advertising and promotion, there should be relatively high taxes on it, health warnings, and they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a school. At least if the kids can go all day without vaping, they might not fall into a hole. In Canada, vaping among teenagers has increased 75% in one year this is quite a substantial thing to worry about. [1] [1] http://www.cancer.ca/en/about-us/for-media/media-releases/national/2019/youth-vaping/?region=qc http://www.cancer.ca/en/about-us/for-media/media-releases/na...