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>> The federal government can then negotiate prices which will be far lower I'm not convinced that the government can get a better rate - especially when you l

>> The federal government can then negotiate prices which will be far lower I'm not convinced that the government can get a better rate - especially when you look at other sectors where government contracting has become a lucrative business like IT, military or space where the private sector does things much cheaper than what the government does. >> Japan where prices are super low ... far more private doctors per capita than in US I think the real reason in Japan might be that costs are low because there is more competition due to more private doctors. The cost of becoming a doctor are lower (lower education costs, lower malpractice insurances costs etc) and that incentivizes more people to become doctors and they are able to charge a lower fee as a result.

grey-area 7y ago
Let's look at the data. https://www.statista.com/statistics/268826/health-expenditure-as-gdp-percentage-in-oecd-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268826/health-expenditur... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea... The US is an outlier, because the US system is broken. IMO the US healthcare market either needs to be properly regulated, or it should be converted to single-payer (a system which many other countries use with great success) - other developed countries are spending significantly less per capita for better outcomes while still allowing private healthcare for those who want it and can afford it.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  This is all interesting but not responsive to GP comment. It is in fact quite plausible that lower costs for physicians could lead to more physicians and more price competition among physicians, even in USA.
  - grey-area 7y ago
    It is in fact quite plausible that lower costs for physicians could lead to more physicians and more price competition among physicians, even in USA. It doesn't matter what seems plausible to you, what matters are the hard facts of how much is spent for what outcome, and as you'll see from those graphs, the evidence is overwhelming that the US spends a lot (both per capita and as % of GDP), and gets less in return.
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      How do you consider these observations to say anything about the topic of this sub-thread? Yes, we spend a lot on health care, and we're spending more all the time. That indicates that we should make some changes, but it doesn't indicate that this particular change wouldn't work. "Hard facts" that are completely irrelevant are not convincing.
      - grey-area 7y ago
        How do you consider these observations to say anything about the topic of this sub-thread? I thought it obvious, but the first hypothesis from the OP: I'm not convinced that the government can get a better rate From the data: Single payer system countries have far lower costs for similar if not better outcomes. The other hypothesis: I think the real reason in Japan might be that costs are low because there is more competition due to more private doctors From the data: Japan has dramatically lower costs than the US, while having a radically different system far more similar to 'Medicare for all'. The far more private doctors comment was I think addressing irrational concerns that private healthcare would somehow disappear under medicare for all (instead of just being a lot cheaper). Japan is the proof that doesn't have to be the case.
- twic 7y ago
  Obligatory Slate Star Codex link: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost...
- IG_Semmelweiss 7y ago
  " other developed countries are spending significantly less per capita for better outcomes " What are better outcomes ? How are those measured ? US is still the leader in healthtech, health quality, and health service timing. Canadians are literally pouncing on new doctors like freshmen on beer, because existing doctors no longer take patients. The UK NHS has waiting times that are measured in months. The only thing we struggle with is cost. So again, what are better outcomes ?
- mirimir 7y ago
  Kaiser Permanente is a counterexample to "it wouldn't work in the US".
conductr 7y ago
Govt wouldn’t run the hospitals and generally I don’t think govt contracting is super lucrative it’s just big dollars to match big costs. Also running hospitals is very different than running R&D from a cost perspective.

grey-area 7y ago

Let's look at the data. https://www.statista.com/statistics/268826/health-expenditure-as-gdp-percentage-in-oecd-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268826/health-expenditur... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea... The US is an outlier, because the US system is broken. IMO the US healthcare market either needs to be properly regulated, or it should be converted to single-payer (a system which many other countries use with great success) - other developed countries are spending significantly less per capita for better outcomes while still allowing private healthcare for those who want it and can afford it.

jessaustin 7y ago
This is all interesting but not responsive to GP comment. It is in fact quite plausible that lower costs for physicians could lead to more physicians and more price competition among physicians, even in USA.
- grey-area 7y ago
  It is in fact quite plausible that lower costs for physicians could lead to more physicians and more price competition among physicians, even in USA. It doesn't matter what seems plausible to you, what matters are the hard facts of how much is spent for what outcome, and as you'll see from those graphs, the evidence is overwhelming that the US spends a lot (both per capita and as % of GDP), and gets less in return.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    How do you consider these observations to say anything about the topic of this sub-thread? Yes, we spend a lot on health care, and we're spending more all the time. That indicates that we should make some changes, but it doesn't indicate that this particular change wouldn't work. "Hard facts" that are completely irrelevant are not convincing.
    - grey-area 7y ago
      How do you consider these observations to say anything about the topic of this sub-thread? I thought it obvious, but the first hypothesis from the OP: I'm not convinced that the government can get a better rate From the data: Single payer system countries have far lower costs for similar if not better outcomes. The other hypothesis: I think the real reason in Japan might be that costs are low because there is more competition due to more private doctors From the data: Japan has dramatically lower costs than the US, while having a radically different system far more similar to 'Medicare for all'. The far more private doctors comment was I think addressing irrational concerns that private healthcare would somehow disappear under medicare for all (instead of just being a lot cheaper). Japan is the proof that doesn't have to be the case.
twic 7y ago
Obligatory Slate Star Codex link: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost...
IG_Semmelweiss 7y ago
" other developed countries are spending significantly less per capita for better outcomes " What are better outcomes ? How are those measured ? US is still the leader in healthtech, health quality, and health service timing. Canadians are literally pouncing on new doctors like freshmen on beer, because existing doctors no longer take patients. The UK NHS has waiting times that are measured in months. The only thing we struggle with is cost. So again, what are better outcomes ?
mirimir 7y ago
Kaiser Permanente is a counterexample to "it wouldn't work in the US".

conductr 7y ago

Govt wouldn’t run the hospitals and generally I don’t think govt contracting is super lucrative it’s just big dollars to match big costs. Also running hospitals is very different than running R&D from a cost perspective.