5 ms·

Speaking from years of experience working as an ER nurse in the Chicago ghetto... He drew a short straw on the weapon of choice. .22 caliber slugs tend to bou

Speaking from years of experience working as an ER nurse in the Chicago ghetto... He drew a short straw on the weapon of choice. .22 caliber slugs tend to bounce around inside a person. Anything carrying more energy would likely have shattered his scapula, and gone clean through him. The energy of the slug wouldn't have been used up bouncing around his chest. I took care of a person shot in the ankle with a .22. The entrance wound was in his ankle and the exit wound was in his groin. Another client had a single hole in his skull with no exit wound. Needless to say, the poor sap didn't do well after having a slug rattle around inside his skull for a while. But I digress. I just finished watching the first season of The Wire tonight. It reminded me a lot of my stint in Chicago, and I guess I have ballistics on my mind. Back to coding...

rdl 16y ago
Aside from the ease of sound suppressing them, and the small size of the weapons, there is a reason some of the best hit squads in the world use the .22lr! Admittedly, a .22WMR is pretty much a different animal than the .22lr. Out of a rifle, it would have probably been a through and through, assuming a FMJ bullet -- you'd probably get 2000fps for a 40gr. A JSP might not have, and out of a Ruger Single Six, it's a lot closer to a really hot .22lr rifle.
- jacobolus 16y ago
  Your post is nearly indecipherable for a non-expert.
  - zachrose 16y ago
    I never expected to hear that on HN.
    - ax0n 16y ago
      Indeed. The front page is riddled with all kinds of alphabet soup. FSM, LLVM, RegExp just to name a few. I'd kind of assumed that most of us here have learned to cope with unfamiliar terms either by dismissing or researching them.
      - jarin 16y ago
        If you spend any time whatsoever in the military you get this weird superhuman ability to guess acronym meanings. True story.
    - cynicalkane 16y ago
      It's reasonable to assume "hackers" reading "Hacker News" are expert enough in hacking to decipher computer talk, but unreasonable to assume they're expert enough in guns to decipher gun talk.
      - hugh3 16y ago
        Ah, but there's an interesting point here on the social acceptability of non-expertise. If you post some expert-level stuff about physics or microbiology or linguistics or early Medieval French poetry then most people won't understand it but nobody will complain because they're ashamed (well, at least slightly) of their ignorance on these subjects. On the other hand if you post some expert-level stuff about guns or football or Justin Bieber then people will complain because they're proud of their ignorance on these subjects. Being an expert on those subjects marks you out as part of a group which some people here don't want to be seen as being part of, so folks are quite proud to proclaim their ignorance on these subjects. Of course, go to another corner of the internet and it's all switched around.
        roel_v 16y ago
        Funnily enough I posted just this (albeit in a more biting tone) last week, in an instance involving Justin Bieber (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982494 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982494), and was getting up/downvoted for a while just like you are until the upvotes won out in the end ;)
        cynicalkane 16y ago
        I'm really kind of floored that my simple little post seems to have been so contentious. People seem to have interpreted my comment as something to the effect that gun talk shouldn't be allowed. All I meant to say, however, was what I said--that a lot of people are simply not going to understand dense gun talk. I don't think your comment is true, either. I'd be very surprised if most people here were ashamed, even slightly, of their ignorance on any given 'nerd' subject. Very often, the top comments in a story are either explanations or requests for explanations followed by explanations, maybe followed by more requests for clarification. I also bet I can find more people here proud of their ignorance about say, Haskell monads, than about guns, judging by how loud they are about it. Finally, Justin Bieber is a subject of a different nature--his prominence in culture is disproportionately higher than his importance, so people usually don't want to hear about it. Not a fair comparison.
  - Bud 16y ago
    I'm not an expert by any stretch and know virtually nothing about firearms, but I was able to decipher "fps" (feet per second), and 40gr (a 40-grain bullet). As for the other jargon, .22lr and .22WMR are pretty obviously types of weapons and were readily googlable in about 5 seconds. I don't really see a huge complexity issue here.
- PostOnce 16y ago
  Got any sources for that hit squads claim? Sounds fascinating. I'd read more. Relatedly, the world doesn't have enough good spy movies.
  - roel_v 16y ago
    There is an infamous book called 'Hitman' published in the 1980's I believe, published by Paladin Press, that claims to be a manual on how to be, surprise surprise, a hitman. It recommends using a .22 for its ease of suppressability. It's a rather stupid for the rest, but what made it famous is that someone committed a murder in the way described in the book and after that the published was sued and the book got taken off the market. See http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive/oldnews5/hitman.htm http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive/oldnews5/... . I don't know anything about hit squads using .22, but in the (rural) area I'm from, .22 rifles are known as poachers rifles because when used with subsonic ammo and a homemade suppressor, they are very quiet. That said, I'm not sure that hit squads are very concerned with being quiet. That Iranian virus expert that got killed the other week was blown up, the Israelis that killed the Hamas leader a while ago didn't even wear disguises and were filmed full frontal. From the targeted killings that make the news, being 'subtle' doesn't seem to be a consideration. Oh and drug dealers who kill people don't care about being silent, either. All high profile shootings of the last few years in my area were with heavy caliber weapons.
- bwhite 16y ago
  Sound suppression is largely a function of relatively slowly bleeding off the gas that results from combustion. There is not much powder in a 22lr (22 long-rifle) round, which is why it is easily suppressible. I can make no particular comment as to the frequency of their use by the best hit squads in the world. The subject of the article was shot with a 22WMR (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) round. This round can use the same bullet as the 22lr round but contains lots more powder. The velocity of the bullet leaving the barrel of the firearm depends on how fast the charge contained in the casing wants to push it and how much the barrel wants to slow it down due to friction. Almost all rifles barrels are between 16.5" and 24". For a average 22WMR round shooting an 40-grain (unit of mass) bullet out of a mid-length rifle barrel one would expect the bullet to leave the barrel at around 2000 feet/sec. The deceleration caused by friction can be altered by changing the exterior-most material of the bullet: a full metal jacket (usually lead totally encased by copper) is potentially slicker than a jacketed soft-point (only partially encased, with the tip exposed). A Ruger Single Six is a type of handgun. The story describes a single-action revolver, which the Single Six is not, but let's ignore that. It comes in barrel lengths of 2.75", 4", and 6". Out of a 4" or 6" barrel, the 22WMR has about 1400-1600 feet/sec of velocity. This is roughly comparable with the upper (or hot) range for a 22lr fired out of a rifle barrel.
  - Zak 16y ago
    The story describes a single-action revolver, which the Single Six is not The Single Six is, in fact a single-action revolver. See manufacturer's product page: http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelSingleSix/firearms.html http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelSingleSix/firearms.htm...
    - bwhite 16y ago
      +1. My brain read Security Six. I think I suppressed a mediocre Single Six experience and foregrounded the delightfulness of the Security Six.
  - commandar 16y ago
    > There is not much powder in a 22lr (22 long-rifle) round, which is why it is easily suppressible. Also, .22LR ammunition is generally subsonic outside of hotter loadings. This avoids the characteristic supersonic crack of higher velocity cartridges.
- gcr 16y ago
  You must have a pretty sweet graphics card to get 2000 FPS.
  - ramchip 16y ago
    He must have thrown his graphics card very hard to reach 2000 FPS.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- dkarl 16y ago
  I heard a story, possibly an urban legend, that the Israeli army had classified a particularly underpowered .22 rifle as a "less lethal" weapon so they could use it to shoot protesters, juvenile rock-throwers, and other targets with which they were supposed to exercise a certain amount of restraint. Soldiers then measured their marksmanship by how lethal they could be with this "less lethal" weapon until the government was forced to correct the "mistake." This is a pretty ugly story that would have gratifying appeal to many people on either side of the issue (I heard it from a conservative guy who was grinning with glee at the supposed cleverness of the Israelis) so there's a good chance it's an urban legend. Confirmation or refutation would be welcome.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    "a story, possibly an urban legend, [about] the Israeli army" In other words, "anti-Semitic libel"?
    - dkarl 16y ago
      Not necessarily. In the context I heard it in, it was anti-Palestinian. P.S. To go further, the guy who told me the story was planning on buying such a gun if he could confirm it, just to have a conversation piece. Plus the story sounds perfectly in line with the bizarre results you get when bureaucrats are asked to classify things.
- ams6110 16y ago
  Admittedly, a .22WMR is pretty much a different animal than the .22lr. Out of a rifle, it would have probably been a through and through, assuming a FMJ bullet -- you'd probably get 2000fps for a 40gr. A JSP might not have, and out of a Ruger Single Six, it's a lot closer to a really hot .22lr rifle. I think I have just experienced what a non-technical user feels like when talking to a hardware geek.

rdl 16y ago

Aside from the ease of sound suppressing them, and the small size of the weapons, there is a reason some of the best hit squads in the world use the .22lr! Admittedly, a .22WMR is pretty much a different animal than the .22lr. Out of a rifle, it would have probably been a through and through, assuming a FMJ bullet -- you'd probably get 2000fps for a 40gr. A JSP might not have, and out of a Ruger Single Six, it's a lot closer to a really hot .22lr rifle.

jacobolus 16y ago
Your post is nearly indecipherable for a non-expert.
- zachrose 16y ago
  I never expected to hear that on HN.
  - ax0n 16y ago
    Indeed. The front page is riddled with all kinds of alphabet soup. FSM, LLVM, RegExp just to name a few. I'd kind of assumed that most of us here have learned to cope with unfamiliar terms either by dismissing or researching them.
    - jarin 16y ago
      If you spend any time whatsoever in the military you get this weird superhuman ability to guess acronym meanings. True story.
  - cynicalkane 16y ago
    It's reasonable to assume "hackers" reading "Hacker News" are expert enough in hacking to decipher computer talk, but unreasonable to assume they're expert enough in guns to decipher gun talk.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      Ah, but there's an interesting point here on the social acceptability of non-expertise. If you post some expert-level stuff about physics or microbiology or linguistics or early Medieval French poetry then most people won't understand it but nobody will complain because they're ashamed (well, at least slightly) of their ignorance on these subjects. On the other hand if you post some expert-level stuff about guns or football or Justin Bieber then people will complain because they're proud of their ignorance on these subjects. Being an expert on those subjects marks you out as part of a group which some people here don't want to be seen as being part of, so folks are quite proud to proclaim their ignorance on these subjects. Of course, go to another corner of the internet and it's all switched around.
      - roel_v 16y ago
        Funnily enough I posted just this (albeit in a more biting tone) last week, in an instance involving Justin Bieber (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982494 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982494), and was getting up/downvoted for a while just like you are until the upvotes won out in the end ;)
      - cynicalkane 16y ago
        I'm really kind of floored that my simple little post seems to have been so contentious. People seem to have interpreted my comment as something to the effect that gun talk shouldn't be allowed. All I meant to say, however, was what I said--that a lot of people are simply not going to understand dense gun talk. I don't think your comment is true, either. I'd be very surprised if most people here were ashamed, even slightly, of their ignorance on any given 'nerd' subject. Very often, the top comments in a story are either explanations or requests for explanations followed by explanations, maybe followed by more requests for clarification. I also bet I can find more people here proud of their ignorance about say, Haskell monads, than about guns, judging by how loud they are about it. Finally, Justin Bieber is a subject of a different nature--his prominence in culture is disproportionately higher than his importance, so people usually don't want to hear about it. Not a fair comparison.
- Bud 16y ago
  I'm not an expert by any stretch and know virtually nothing about firearms, but I was able to decipher "fps" (feet per second), and 40gr (a 40-grain bullet). As for the other jargon, .22lr and .22WMR are pretty obviously types of weapons and were readily googlable in about 5 seconds. I don't really see a huge complexity issue here.
PostOnce 16y ago
Got any sources for that hit squads claim? Sounds fascinating. I'd read more. Relatedly, the world doesn't have enough good spy movies.
- roel_v 16y ago
  There is an infamous book called 'Hitman' published in the 1980's I believe, published by Paladin Press, that claims to be a manual on how to be, surprise surprise, a hitman. It recommends using a .22 for its ease of suppressability. It's a rather stupid for the rest, but what made it famous is that someone committed a murder in the way described in the book and after that the published was sued and the book got taken off the market. See http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive/oldnews5/hitman.htm http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive/oldnews5/... . I don't know anything about hit squads using .22, but in the (rural) area I'm from, .22 rifles are known as poachers rifles because when used with subsonic ammo and a homemade suppressor, they are very quiet. That said, I'm not sure that hit squads are very concerned with being quiet. That Iranian virus expert that got killed the other week was blown up, the Israelis that killed the Hamas leader a while ago didn't even wear disguises and were filmed full frontal. From the targeted killings that make the news, being 'subtle' doesn't seem to be a consideration. Oh and drug dealers who kill people don't care about being silent, either. All high profile shootings of the last few years in my area were with heavy caliber weapons.
bwhite 16y ago
Sound suppression is largely a function of relatively slowly bleeding off the gas that results from combustion. There is not much powder in a 22lr (22 long-rifle) round, which is why it is easily suppressible. I can make no particular comment as to the frequency of their use by the best hit squads in the world. The subject of the article was shot with a 22WMR (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) round. This round can use the same bullet as the 22lr round but contains lots more powder. The velocity of the bullet leaving the barrel of the firearm depends on how fast the charge contained in the casing wants to push it and how much the barrel wants to slow it down due to friction. Almost all rifles barrels are between 16.5" and 24". For a average 22WMR round shooting an 40-grain (unit of mass) bullet out of a mid-length rifle barrel one would expect the bullet to leave the barrel at around 2000 feet/sec. The deceleration caused by friction can be altered by changing the exterior-most material of the bullet: a full metal jacket (usually lead totally encased by copper) is potentially slicker than a jacketed soft-point (only partially encased, with the tip exposed). A Ruger Single Six is a type of handgun. The story describes a single-action revolver, which the Single Six is not, but let's ignore that. It comes in barrel lengths of 2.75", 4", and 6". Out of a 4" or 6" barrel, the 22WMR has about 1400-1600 feet/sec of velocity. This is roughly comparable with the upper (or hot) range for a 22lr fired out of a rifle barrel.
- Zak 16y ago
  The story describes a single-action revolver, which the Single Six is not The Single Six is, in fact a single-action revolver. See manufacturer's product page: http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelSingleSix/firearms.html http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelSingleSix/firearms.htm...
  - bwhite 16y ago
    +1. My brain read Security Six. I think I suppressed a mediocre Single Six experience and foregrounded the delightfulness of the Security Six.
- commandar 16y ago
  > There is not much powder in a 22lr (22 long-rifle) round, which is why it is easily suppressible. Also, .22LR ammunition is generally subsonic outside of hotter loadings. This avoids the characteristic supersonic crack of higher velocity cartridges.
gcr 16y ago
You must have a pretty sweet graphics card to get 2000 FPS.
- ramchip 16y ago
  He must have thrown his graphics card very hard to reach 2000 FPS.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
dkarl 16y ago
I heard a story, possibly an urban legend, that the Israeli army had classified a particularly underpowered .22 rifle as a "less lethal" weapon so they could use it to shoot protesters, juvenile rock-throwers, and other targets with which they were supposed to exercise a certain amount of restraint. Soldiers then measured their marksmanship by how lethal they could be with this "less lethal" weapon until the government was forced to correct the "mistake." This is a pretty ugly story that would have gratifying appeal to many people on either side of the issue (I heard it from a conservative guy who was grinning with glee at the supposed cleverness of the Israelis) so there's a good chance it's an urban legend. Confirmation or refutation would be welcome.
- philwelch 16y ago
  "a story, possibly an urban legend, [about] the Israeli army" In other words, "anti-Semitic libel"?
  - dkarl 16y ago
    Not necessarily. In the context I heard it in, it was anti-Palestinian. P.S. To go further, the guy who told me the story was planning on buying such a gun if he could confirm it, just to have a conversation piece. Plus the story sounds perfectly in line with the bizarre results you get when bureaucrats are asked to classify things.
ams6110 16y ago
Admittedly, a .22WMR is pretty much a different animal than the .22lr. Out of a rifle, it would have probably been a through and through, assuming a FMJ bullet -- you'd probably get 2000fps for a 40gr. A JSP might not have, and out of a Ruger Single Six, it's a lot closer to a really hot .22lr rifle. I think I have just experienced what a non-technical user feels like when talking to a hardware geek.