6 ms·

I wonder about this as well. I see lists of anxiety symptoms shared and I meet every one of them, but I don't consider myself to have anxiety. Isn't it normal t

I wonder about this as well. I see lists of anxiety symptoms shared and I meet every one of them, but I don't consider myself to have anxiety. Isn't it normal to be anxious in stressful situations or to be depressed when things are going poorly. Then I do some reading about it and I wonder maybe its not normal, maybe I'm not supposed to feel this way. I'm sure there are people with mental health conditions that do need treatment, I won't argue that at all. I do think pinning down what is "normal" and should be just waited out and what is abnormal and should be medically treated, although easy at the extreme edges, is very difficult in the middle of the spectrum. I agree with the article that we are trying to narrow the normal distribution of human traits by medicalising things that are a common occurrence for at least a subset of the population. I'm not sure where this stems from though. Is it the desire for extreme corporate efficiency and competition for resources. Is it a misguided medical system trying to make patients out of more people? Like anything sufficiently complicated its probably a huge confluence of factors.

klodolph 7y ago
Well, first of all, only certain professionals are licensed to administer those tests, and for good reason, because otherwise people would self-diagnose too much or too little. > […] I don't consider myself to have anxiety. Everyone has anxiety. Some people have anxiety disorders. > Isn't it normal to be anxious in stressful situations […] People with anxiety disorders are anxious in normal, non-stressful situations. They can panic when asking a bus driver which stop they should get off at, when talking to a new coworker, or in other ordinary circumstances. People with depressive disorders are depressed at times even when things are going well. People with severe depression can have a hard time just getting out of bed in the morning, feeding themselves, and going through the motions of ordinary life.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  I don't think this was intended as a general purpose argument against ever treating mood disorders. Rather, the parent comment is describing the fact that anxiety and depression are conflated with their corresponding disorders too often. I can somewhat relate from experience: I went to a doctor for terrible trouble sleeping, to the point that it was affecting my physical health, that we assumed was caused by anxiety/depression[1]. I was pretty shocked at the rapidity with which she suggested going on antidepressants, particularly considering the tapering periods and the seriousness of the dependency and side effects that they cause. I pushed back a little but it turns out that my doctor's cavalier attitude towards antidepressants isn't out of the norm: they're considered a "try it and see what happens" first line of defense, without trying to get a better sense of the patient's specific issues and whether therapy or other interventions, sans medication, would be a better fit (though I should note that the doctor recommended that I go to therapy if possible in conjunction). Tangentially, this fits with a larger disillusionment I have with the medical system: a combination of screwy incentives, bad lines of communication between generalists and specialists, and a serious institutional/cultural case of a God complex leading to a lack of critical thinking means that I'm at the point where I pretty much keep anything a doctor tells me as just another unreliable information source, weighted more heavily perhaps than my layman's understanding of the research but on categorically the same level. Ive seen the same disillusionment kick in among my doctor family members: in our conversations over the years, my sister and her husband have gone from a central case of said God complex to as much as telling me not to take doctors' advice without a heavy dose of skepticism. I should note that I don't actually consider this a criticism of any individual physicians as much as the realities of the system. One of the biggest factors is that the average person showing up at the doctor is simultaneously incredibly dumb and incredibly confident in their understanding of the medical problem. It makes sense for doctors to be a somewhat heavy-handed and reductive, and once you build those habits into your institutions and pedagogy, it's hard to turn it off. [1] Turns out it was the other way around: consistently not sleeping causes some pretty crappy psychological problems
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    How did you fix your sleep problem? And if they both disappeared at the same time, how can you be certain that your not the one mixing up cause and effect?
- new2628 7y ago
  What is the penalty for mistakes for those "certain professionals"? What are the incentives when they make decisions?
  - klodolph 7y ago
    In general you are not penalized for mistakes but for failing to provide the standard of reasonable care. There are various penalties for failing to provide this level of care, including revocation of your license or exposure to malpractice suits (for which you would carry insurance). In the US this varies from state to state so you would want to talk to an expert in your state if you want details.
wool_gather 7y ago
I think you're right to question. The rule of thumb I've heard, which seems sensible to me, is is the condition/symptom negatively affecting your ability to go about your day-to-day life. If not, then whatever you're experiencing is probably "normal enough". There's no great mass of people with completely by-the-book mental processes; everyone's a little "weird" in some way. On the other hand, I suppose you may not be able to evaluate that question fully yourself. It's hard to see your own mind clearly.
- throwaway55254 7y ago
  > is the condition/symptom negatively affecting your ability to go about your day-to-day life I wonder though, is this even too broad? Perhaps people need to overcome some of this adversity. Not everything is painless in life nor should it be.
  - fwip 7y ago
    Part of the point is that it's not something you're overcoming. If you're worried about it, but you do it anyway, you still have the ability to go about your life. When my anxiety was super bad (before therapy and medication), there were weeks when I was too anxious to go to the grocery store and started skipping dinner because there wasn't any food in the house. I hadn't seen a dentist in 8 years because my phone anxiety was too high to make an appointment - and my social anxiety was terrified that they'd be mean to me about my teeth. I'm doing much better now, but there are still some times that my anxiety acts as a total blocker to something I have to (or sincerely want to) do.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    > Not everything is painless in life nor should it be. No, but a lot of things should be. Leaving the house SHOULD be, but for some people it isn't. If it's causing you so much dread you can't bring yourself to do it, that's not just "overcoming adversity" - that's adversity where there shouldn't be any.
  - wool_gather 7y ago
    I mean, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but you "overcome" it by getting treatment if it's bad enough.
mruts 7y ago
I don’t think anyone really knows if other people experience anything that is similar. I go back and forth on that a lot. But in terms of medicalizing things, who cares if it’s normal. It’s not about being normal, it’s about being better. I get prescribed a lot more medication than I need. I don’t take it often, but I like the options having anti-depressants, sleeping pills, stimulants, and anti-anxiety medication provide. Wirh it I have the ability to easily control my mental and physical state depending on I want to feel and what is required of me. Do I need to crush code for 48 hours? No problem. Sleeping on a plane, no problem. Etc etc. Not saying this would work for everyone, and if I took the time, maybe I could use meditation or whatever to achieve the same results. But I’m busy and have things to do, I suppose.
- throwaway55254 7y ago
  Better living through chemistry. Not at all what I was thinking when I wrote this post, but I love this take on it. I think if that is truly the drive behind the medicalisation of every day life we would be better off dropping the facade just allow people to live their best life through chemical augmentation, if they so desire. My mind takes the wide application of this to a scary dystopian conclusion, but perhaps it doesn't have to be this way. Or conversely perhaps we are already there.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    The thing is most people do not have the necessary critical thinking education, chemistry and biology knowledge to even approach taking random untested formulations for any reason, much less for prolonged time. Even medicine oftentimes lacks reliable data for specific case or long term use...
sterkekoffie 7y ago
Looking up symptoms of anxiety to determine if you have GAD is a bit like looking up symptoms of hunger to determine if you're malnourished.
dragonsky67 7y ago
The problem with continuous anxiety is that long term exposure can have a debilitating physical impact. This is not a joke and if you find that you are continually stressed or anxious you should take some active measures to get it under control.

klodolph 7y ago

Well, first of all, only certain professionals are licensed to administer those tests, and for good reason, because otherwise people would self-diagnose too much or too little. > […] I don't consider myself to have anxiety. Everyone has anxiety. Some people have anxiety disorders. > Isn't it normal to be anxious in stressful situations […] People with anxiety disorders are anxious in normal, non-stressful situations. They can panic when asking a bus driver which stop they should get off at, when talking to a new coworker, or in other ordinary circumstances. People with depressive disorders are depressed at times even when things are going well. People with severe depression can have a hard time just getting out of bed in the morning, feeding themselves, and going through the motions of ordinary life.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
wutbrodo 7y ago
I don't think this was intended as a general purpose argument against ever treating mood disorders. Rather, the parent comment is describing the fact that anxiety and depression are conflated with their corresponding disorders too often. I can somewhat relate from experience: I went to a doctor for terrible trouble sleeping, to the point that it was affecting my physical health, that we assumed was caused by anxiety/depression[1]. I was pretty shocked at the rapidity with which she suggested going on antidepressants, particularly considering the tapering periods and the seriousness of the dependency and side effects that they cause. I pushed back a little but it turns out that my doctor's cavalier attitude towards antidepressants isn't out of the norm: they're considered a "try it and see what happens" first line of defense, without trying to get a better sense of the patient's specific issues and whether therapy or other interventions, sans medication, would be a better fit (though I should note that the doctor recommended that I go to therapy if possible in conjunction). Tangentially, this fits with a larger disillusionment I have with the medical system: a combination of screwy incentives, bad lines of communication between generalists and specialists, and a serious institutional/cultural case of a God complex leading to a lack of critical thinking means that I'm at the point where I pretty much keep anything a doctor tells me as just another unreliable information source, weighted more heavily perhaps than my layman's understanding of the research but on categorically the same level. Ive seen the same disillusionment kick in among my doctor family members: in our conversations over the years, my sister and her husband have gone from a central case of said God complex to as much as telling me not to take doctors' advice without a heavy dose of skepticism. I should note that I don't actually consider this a criticism of any individual physicians as much as the realities of the system. One of the biggest factors is that the average person showing up at the doctor is simultaneously incredibly dumb and incredibly confident in their understanding of the medical problem. It makes sense for doctors to be a somewhat heavy-handed and reductive, and once you build those habits into your institutions and pedagogy, it's hard to turn it off. [1] Turns out it was the other way around: consistently not sleeping causes some pretty crappy psychological problems
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  How did you fix your sleep problem? And if they both disappeared at the same time, how can you be certain that your not the one mixing up cause and effect?
new2628 7y ago
What is the penalty for mistakes for those "certain professionals"? What are the incentives when they make decisions?
- klodolph 7y ago
  In general you are not penalized for mistakes but for failing to provide the standard of reasonable care. There are various penalties for failing to provide this level of care, including revocation of your license or exposure to malpractice suits (for which you would carry insurance). In the US this varies from state to state so you would want to talk to an expert in your state if you want details.

wool_gather 7y ago

I think you're right to question. The rule of thumb I've heard, which seems sensible to me, is is the condition/symptom negatively affecting your ability to go about your day-to-day life. If not, then whatever you're experiencing is probably "normal enough". There's no great mass of people with completely by-the-book mental processes; everyone's a little "weird" in some way. On the other hand, I suppose you may not be able to evaluate that question fully yourself. It's hard to see your own mind clearly.

throwaway55254 7y ago
> is the condition/symptom negatively affecting your ability to go about your day-to-day life I wonder though, is this even too broad? Perhaps people need to overcome some of this adversity. Not everything is painless in life nor should it be.
- fwip 7y ago
  Part of the point is that it's not something you're overcoming. If you're worried about it, but you do it anyway, you still have the ability to go about your life. When my anxiety was super bad (before therapy and medication), there were weeks when I was too anxious to go to the grocery store and started skipping dinner because there wasn't any food in the house. I hadn't seen a dentist in 8 years because my phone anxiety was too high to make an appointment - and my social anxiety was terrified that they'd be mean to me about my teeth. I'm doing much better now, but there are still some times that my anxiety acts as a total blocker to something I have to (or sincerely want to) do.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  > Not everything is painless in life nor should it be. No, but a lot of things should be. Leaving the house SHOULD be, but for some people it isn't. If it's causing you so much dread you can't bring yourself to do it, that's not just "overcoming adversity" - that's adversity where there shouldn't be any.
- wool_gather 7y ago
  I mean, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but you "overcome" it by getting treatment if it's bad enough.

mruts 7y ago

I don’t think anyone really knows if other people experience anything that is similar. I go back and forth on that a lot. But in terms of medicalizing things, who cares if it’s normal. It’s not about being normal, it’s about being better. I get prescribed a lot more medication than I need. I don’t take it often, but I like the options having anti-depressants, sleeping pills, stimulants, and anti-anxiety medication provide. Wirh it I have the ability to easily control my mental and physical state depending on I want to feel and what is required of me. Do I need to crush code for 48 hours? No problem. Sleeping on a plane, no problem. Etc etc. Not saying this would work for everyone, and if I took the time, maybe I could use meditation or whatever to achieve the same results. But I’m busy and have things to do, I suppose.

throwaway55254 7y ago
Better living through chemistry. Not at all what I was thinking when I wrote this post, but I love this take on it. I think if that is truly the drive behind the medicalisation of every day life we would be better off dropping the facade just allow people to live their best life through chemical augmentation, if they so desire. My mind takes the wide application of this to a scary dystopian conclusion, but perhaps it doesn't have to be this way. Or conversely perhaps we are already there.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  The thing is most people do not have the necessary critical thinking education, chemistry and biology knowledge to even approach taking random untested formulations for any reason, much less for prolonged time. Even medicine oftentimes lacks reliable data for specific case or long term use...

sterkekoffie 7y ago

Looking up symptoms of anxiety to determine if you have GAD is a bit like looking up symptoms of hunger to determine if you're malnourished.

dragonsky67 7y ago

The problem with continuous anxiety is that long term exposure can have a debilitating physical impact. This is not a joke and if you find that you are continually stressed or anxious you should take some active measures to get it under control.