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I think honestly think westworld (yes the tv-series) has the best explanation of why general intelligence is a hard problem to solve. They mention consciousnes

I think honestly think westworld (yes the tv-series) has the best explanation of why general intelligence is a hard problem to solve. They mention consciousness but I think the same apply to intelligence in general. Humans in my mind aren't different from say a program you write except that we have a lot more input and possible outputs depending on a much larger variant of external variables. If we could build machines that have eyesight just as we do, muscles just as we do etc I'm sure we could reverse-engineer the human being. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S94ETUiMZwQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S94ETUiMZwQ

toxik 7y ago
I find this analysis reductionist. You're basically saying "brains aren't hard to reproduce once you have biological sensors and actuators." Why not? They're _extremely_ delicate, intricate organs. Claim 2 is also a difficult one: of course you can easily claim consciousness doesn't exist, but it is impossible to argue by logic. You need a metaphysical philosophical framework, and then it's already left the realm of empirically observable truths.
- dspillett 7y ago
  I'm not sure the claim is that consciousness doesn't exist. More that it is an emergent property of complex systems rather than something that is (or can be) deliberately programmed.
  - ecmascript 7y ago
    Precisely. It's the complex system that gives us an illusion of consciousness. At least, that is what I naively believe in since there is a lack of evidence for anything else.
    - goatlover 7y ago
      So you think experience is itself an illusion? When you kick a rock and feel pain, you're not really experiencing pain? Is the rock also an illusion?
      - dspillett 7y ago
        I can't speak for the other guy, but from my PoV something being an emergent behaviour doesn't necessarily mean that it is an illusion. Patterns can really exist without being explicitly optimised or programmed for.
      - ecmascript 7y ago
        Well it depends on how you view it. You feel the pain from kicking the rock and remember it, so you won't kick the same rock against a few minutes after. That is an experience to me. An experience is simply a memory of an event/feeling etc. Without any memories, you won't remember any events or feelings and will gladly kick the rock again since you won't have any memory of it hurting you. Or how else would you define an experience? A memory isn't an illusion, there is definitely something physical in your brain that say that that specific event has happened. But you can also remember things that haven't happened, which is probably why a lot of people believe in ghosts, religion etc. I don't know why, but it probably serves a biological purpose and people are probably more likely to survive if they are afraid of things and are careful.
- ecmascript 7y ago
  No this is not what I am saying. I am saying it isn't some kind of magical thing going on that we can't replicate given enough technical progress and skills. Yeah sure, but so is the claim for that consciousness does exist.
  - evanagon 7y ago
    It might not be magical, but I wouldn't underestimate the complexity of replicating even simple cells. We haven't been able to replicate an amoeba let alone neurons let alone a brain.
    - ecmascript 7y ago
      This is a valid and good point.

toxik 7y ago

I find this analysis reductionist. You're basically saying "brains aren't hard to reproduce once you have biological sensors and actuators." Why not? They're _extremely_ delicate, intricate organs. Claim 2 is also a difficult one: of course you can easily claim consciousness doesn't exist, but it is impossible to argue by logic. You need a metaphysical philosophical framework, and then it's already left the realm of empirically observable truths.

dspillett 7y ago
I'm not sure the claim is that consciousness doesn't exist. More that it is an emergent property of complex systems rather than something that is (or can be) deliberately programmed.
- ecmascript 7y ago
  Precisely. It's the complex system that gives us an illusion of consciousness. At least, that is what I naively believe in since there is a lack of evidence for anything else.
  - goatlover 7y ago
    So you think experience is itself an illusion? When you kick a rock and feel pain, you're not really experiencing pain? Is the rock also an illusion?
    - dspillett 7y ago
      I can't speak for the other guy, but from my PoV something being an emergent behaviour doesn't necessarily mean that it is an illusion. Patterns can really exist without being explicitly optimised or programmed for.
    - ecmascript 7y ago
      Well it depends on how you view it. You feel the pain from kicking the rock and remember it, so you won't kick the same rock against a few minutes after. That is an experience to me. An experience is simply a memory of an event/feeling etc. Without any memories, you won't remember any events or feelings and will gladly kick the rock again since you won't have any memory of it hurting you. Or how else would you define an experience? A memory isn't an illusion, there is definitely something physical in your brain that say that that specific event has happened. But you can also remember things that haven't happened, which is probably why a lot of people believe in ghosts, religion etc. I don't know why, but it probably serves a biological purpose and people are probably more likely to survive if they are afraid of things and are careful.
ecmascript 7y ago
No this is not what I am saying. I am saying it isn't some kind of magical thing going on that we can't replicate given enough technical progress and skills. Yeah sure, but so is the claim for that consciousness does exist.
- evanagon 7y ago
  It might not be magical, but I wouldn't underestimate the complexity of replicating even simple cells. We haven't been able to replicate an amoeba let alone neurons let alone a brain.
  - ecmascript 7y ago
    This is a valid and good point.