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Under the moral principle that most three year olds learn from their parents: "Clean up your own shit". If you build an oil platform in a known hurricane area,

Under the moral principle that most three year olds learn from their parents: "Clean up your own shit". If you build an oil platform in a known hurricane area, well, you're responsible for cleaning up when a hurricane hits your (shocker!) insufficiently prepared oil platform. (I vaguely remember there's also a children's story about people building with the cheapest shit and not wanting to take responsibility - "Three little pigs")

la_barba 7y ago
>Under the moral principle that most three year olds learn from their parents: "Clean up your own shit". They didn't cause the hurricane. Your moral principle is invalid here. >If you build an oil platform in a known hurricane area, well, you're responsible for cleaning up when a hurricane hits your (shocker!) insufficiently prepared oil platform. Is this your own opinion or are you claiming this is exactly what happened? I don't want to get into an argument over opinions, thats why I'm asking.
- delecti 7y ago
  If a hurricane causes an oil platform to release oil, the platform was by definition not sufficiently prepared. The bar for "sufficiently prepared" might be prohibitively high, but that should just be the cost of business.
  - la_barba 7y ago
    >The bar for "sufficiently prepared" might be prohibitively high, but that should just be the cost of business. I don't agree, and neither does centuries of established moral legal arguments adopted by developed nations.
    - delecti 7y ago
      And I'm saying I think you (and those nations' standards) are wrong. We're letting companies profit off of the environment without being responsible for cleaning up after themselves when shit goes sideways.
      - la_barba 7y ago
        All designs break at some point. There is no such thing as hurricane proof. In this case the sub-surface safety valves designed to prevent oil spillage, failed. To take another industry, there are design risks when it comes to seatbelts, brakes, crumple zones, tires, fuel lines, etc, etc. Better designs for each of these safety features already exist. You can't simply wave a magic wand and ban cars with older designs. We have been making progress on all fronts when it comes to safety. I have family who has worked on oil rigs, and what we have now is a hell of a lot better than the rickety explosion-prone rigs from 60-odd years ago. >We're letting companies profit off of the environment without being responsible for cleaning up after themselves when shit goes sideways. That is just a hyperbole and is not grounded in reality. Ironically, in this case, the company lost the oil, lost the 'money', wasn't able to profit, and went out of business. Looks like you got what you wanted. :)
- ajmurmann 7y ago
  This is exactly what the OP referring to when he referenced negative externalities. This problem only exists because the oil company took a risk in order to make profits. The potential risk (the negative externally) materialized. If society eats up the cost, we encourage business practices that might be a net-negative for society as a whole. If the oil company has to pay for the cleanup, the market forces can determine if drilling the way they did, where they did is economical.
- ashildr 7y ago
  If the street is wet and I lose control over my car and run you down with it because of that, who is going to pay for your hospital fees?
  - la_barba 7y ago
    I don't want my taxes to pay for putting out the fire in your yard. You were probably careless. I work out and stay healthy. I don't want to subsidize your health insurance because you eat too many Twinkies.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - mulmen 7y ago
      So in this example it’s your fault you were walking down the street and because you work out being hit by a car won’t hurt you?
      - la_barba 7y ago
        Fault is a loaded word, and is inapplicable in this context. The burden of the cost is borne by the party that society that chooses using whatever framework exists. Maybe it was "mob justice" a thousand years ago. Today, maybe its in the form of a lawsuit. Maybe its a social safety net that pays for your medical expenses.
    - code_duck 7y ago
      Unfortunately, a fire in one person’s yard is not likely to stay just in their yard. Even if you feel like the people who are responsible should burn to death if they don’t have their own private fire service, unfortunately, their neighbors and possibly the entire community are likely to suffer if the fire is not extinguished immediately.
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      "I work out and stay healthy." You are aware that this is not a 100% plan for staying healthy ?
- moultano 7y ago
  >They didn't cause the hurricane. Your moral principle is invalid here. They caused the hole in the oil bed that the oil is gushing out of.
- mffnbs 7y ago
  Continuing to allow businesses to take out loans against the environment is a net negative for society as a whole if those loans are never expected to be repaid. There are few industries that break down binary "free market or bust" logic. This happens to be one of them and you cannot apply some global, arbitrarily defined, rule of responsibility when the real world is more nuanced than that.
- tclancy 7y ago
  They decided to take on the risk of possibly having their rig knocked over by drilling in a dangerous place because the potential reward while it was pumping was large enough according to their calculations (do note their calculations may or may not have cynically included wondering if there are enough people who are thinking like you are) and lost that bet. Vegas never seems concerned I thought the other team was going to win.

la_barba 7y ago

>Under the moral principle that most three year olds learn from their parents: "Clean up your own shit". They didn't cause the hurricane. Your moral principle is invalid here. >If you build an oil platform in a known hurricane area, well, you're responsible for cleaning up when a hurricane hits your (shocker!) insufficiently prepared oil platform. Is this your own opinion or are you claiming this is exactly what happened? I don't want to get into an argument over opinions, thats why I'm asking.

delecti 7y ago
If a hurricane causes an oil platform to release oil, the platform was by definition not sufficiently prepared. The bar for "sufficiently prepared" might be prohibitively high, but that should just be the cost of business.
- la_barba 7y ago
  >The bar for "sufficiently prepared" might be prohibitively high, but that should just be the cost of business. I don't agree, and neither does centuries of established moral legal arguments adopted by developed nations.
  - delecti 7y ago
    And I'm saying I think you (and those nations' standards) are wrong. We're letting companies profit off of the environment without being responsible for cleaning up after themselves when shit goes sideways.
    - la_barba 7y ago
      All designs break at some point. There is no such thing as hurricane proof. In this case the sub-surface safety valves designed to prevent oil spillage, failed. To take another industry, there are design risks when it comes to seatbelts, brakes, crumple zones, tires, fuel lines, etc, etc. Better designs for each of these safety features already exist. You can't simply wave a magic wand and ban cars with older designs. We have been making progress on all fronts when it comes to safety. I have family who has worked on oil rigs, and what we have now is a hell of a lot better than the rickety explosion-prone rigs from 60-odd years ago. >We're letting companies profit off of the environment without being responsible for cleaning up after themselves when shit goes sideways. That is just a hyperbole and is not grounded in reality. Ironically, in this case, the company lost the oil, lost the 'money', wasn't able to profit, and went out of business. Looks like you got what you wanted. :)
ajmurmann 7y ago
This is exactly what the OP referring to when he referenced negative externalities. This problem only exists because the oil company took a risk in order to make profits. The potential risk (the negative externally) materialized. If society eats up the cost, we encourage business practices that might be a net-negative for society as a whole. If the oil company has to pay for the cleanup, the market forces can determine if drilling the way they did, where they did is economical.
ashildr 7y ago
If the street is wet and I lose control over my car and run you down with it because of that, who is going to pay for your hospital fees?
- la_barba 7y ago
  I don't want my taxes to pay for putting out the fire in your yard. You were probably careless. I work out and stay healthy. I don't want to subsidize your health insurance because you eat too many Twinkies.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - mulmen 7y ago
    So in this example it’s your fault you were walking down the street and because you work out being hit by a car won’t hurt you?
    - la_barba 7y ago
      Fault is a loaded word, and is inapplicable in this context. The burden of the cost is borne by the party that society that chooses using whatever framework exists. Maybe it was "mob justice" a thousand years ago. Today, maybe its in the form of a lawsuit. Maybe its a social safety net that pays for your medical expenses.
  - code_duck 7y ago
    Unfortunately, a fire in one person’s yard is not likely to stay just in their yard. Even if you feel like the people who are responsible should burn to death if they don’t have their own private fire service, unfortunately, their neighbors and possibly the entire community are likely to suffer if the fire is not extinguished immediately.
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    "I work out and stay healthy." You are aware that this is not a 100% plan for staying healthy ?
moultano 7y ago
>They didn't cause the hurricane. Your moral principle is invalid here. They caused the hole in the oil bed that the oil is gushing out of.
mffnbs 7y ago
Continuing to allow businesses to take out loans against the environment is a net negative for society as a whole if those loans are never expected to be repaid. There are few industries that break down binary "free market or bust" logic. This happens to be one of them and you cannot apply some global, arbitrarily defined, rule of responsibility when the real world is more nuanced than that.
tclancy 7y ago
They decided to take on the risk of possibly having their rig knocked over by drilling in a dangerous place because the potential reward while it was pumping was large enough according to their calculations (do note their calculations may or may not have cynically included wondering if there are enough people who are thinking like you are) and lost that bet. Vegas never seems concerned I thought the other team was going to win.