8 ms·

There was never any coercion in the US. All those black people simply begged to be chained and beaten for centuries. The tribes? They just really wanted to trav

There was never any coercion in the US. All those black people simply begged to be chained and beaten for centuries. The tribes? They just really wanted to travel to Oklahoma. Women were naturally granted the right to vote in 1776 without any strife or suffering. Whitewashing history to make it more palatable is dangerous.

jjoonathan 7y ago
We're talking about whether or not coercion is necessary to bootstrap a high-trust society. Are you arguing that those types of coercion were fundamentally necessary to establish the United States? Or are you forgetting this context in order to have something to be upset about?
- ikeyany 7y ago
  Yes, I am arguing that. There is no way the US is the world power it was through the late 1800s and beyond, without centuries of coercion [0]. [0] https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-economy https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-eco...
  - philwelch 7y ago
    One of the key arguments against slavery was that it help the South back from being able to have a modern, industrial economy. If slavery was the key ingredient to being a world power, the slave states would not have had their asses thoroughly handed to them by the free states in the Civil War.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
DuskStar 7y ago
> Women were naturally granted the right to vote in 1776 without any strife or suffering. Depends on the state, if I'm remembering correctly. New Jersey allowed certain women and african americans to vote until (I believe) 1806. Dirtying history to make our advancements larger is also dangerous.
- ikeyany 7y ago
  Provide some evidence then. What percentage of women could vote then? What percentage of blacks? If it's not a significant amount, your reply isn't much of a rebuttal.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    The original requirements were the same for everyone - white or black, male or female - though thanks to the doctrine of coverture, married women would not have the assets to qualify. (Married women could generally not own property independent of their husband) Coverture was not applied universally however, and many married women still voted. See [0] > That all inhabitants of this Colony, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote for Representatives in Council and Assembly; and also for all other public officers, that shall be elected by the people of the county at large. It's probably also worth noting that these restrictions applied to men, too. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_Jersey_State_Constitution#Constitution_of_1776 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_Jersey_Stat...
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      On that note, a couple states in the Western US were early adopters of womens' suffrage, mostly to boost their numbers and/or to sway women into moving west; Wyoming is the famous example, but Colorado, Idaho, and - surprisingly enough - Utah all had formally legalized womens' right to vote in general elections prior to 1900.
    - moate 7y ago
      Rolling back to the original point, that the US was High Trust right from the start, doesn't the point that there were major barrier's to entry for being part of the "democracy" for both men and women show that there was some inaccuracy to that statement?
pesmhey 7y ago
Oh, didn’t you read? All men are created equal. It’s a classless society!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

jjoonathan 7y ago

We're talking about whether or not coercion is necessary to bootstrap a high-trust society. Are you arguing that those types of coercion were fundamentally necessary to establish the United States? Or are you forgetting this context in order to have something to be upset about?

ikeyany 7y ago
Yes, I am arguing that. There is no way the US is the world power it was through the late 1800s and beyond, without centuries of coercion [0]. [0] https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-economy https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-eco...
- philwelch 7y ago
  One of the key arguments against slavery was that it help the South back from being able to have a modern, industrial economy. If slavery was the key ingredient to being a world power, the slave states would not have had their asses thoroughly handed to them by the free states in the Civil War.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

DuskStar 7y ago

> Women were naturally granted the right to vote in 1776 without any strife or suffering. Depends on the state, if I'm remembering correctly. New Jersey allowed certain women and african americans to vote until (I believe) 1806. Dirtying history to make our advancements larger is also dangerous.

ikeyany 7y ago
Provide some evidence then. What percentage of women could vote then? What percentage of blacks? If it's not a significant amount, your reply isn't much of a rebuttal.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  The original requirements were the same for everyone - white or black, male or female - though thanks to the doctrine of coverture, married women would not have the assets to qualify. (Married women could generally not own property independent of their husband) Coverture was not applied universally however, and many married women still voted. See [0] > That all inhabitants of this Colony, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote for Representatives in Council and Assembly; and also for all other public officers, that shall be elected by the people of the county at large. It's probably also worth noting that these restrictions applied to men, too. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_Jersey_State_Constitution#Constitution_of_1776 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_Jersey_Stat...
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    On that note, a couple states in the Western US were early adopters of womens' suffrage, mostly to boost their numbers and/or to sway women into moving west; Wyoming is the famous example, but Colorado, Idaho, and - surprisingly enough - Utah all had formally legalized womens' right to vote in general elections prior to 1900.
  - moate 7y ago
    Rolling back to the original point, that the US was High Trust right from the start, doesn't the point that there were major barrier's to entry for being part of the "democracy" for both men and women show that there was some inaccuracy to that statement?

pesmhey 7y ago

Oh, didn’t you read? All men are created equal. It’s a classless society!

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]