5 ms·

This isn't how the Unites States evolved. Arguably, the success of the experiment still hasn't been fully established, but the major institutions that govern th

by yborg 7y ago

This isn't how the Unites States evolved. Arguably, the success of the experiment still hasn't been fully established, but the major institutions that govern the US system were more or less present right from the beginning.

moate 7y ago
That's a take. I'm assuming you mean "The US as created by white European invaders who had to decimate a local indigenous population using slavery and warfare after purging itself of imperial overlords" right? Like the US in its current coast to coast form didn't spring out fully formed from Liberty's bosom. It also had centuries of European innovation that lead to it.
ikeyany 7y ago
There was never any coercion in the US. All those black people simply begged to be chained and beaten for centuries. The tribes? They just really wanted to travel to Oklahoma. Women were naturally granted the right to vote in 1776 without any strife or suffering. Whitewashing history to make it more palatable is dangerous.
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  We're talking about whether or not coercion is necessary to bootstrap a high-trust society. Are you arguing that those types of coercion were fundamentally necessary to establish the United States? Or are you forgetting this context in order to have something to be upset about?
  - ikeyany 7y ago
    Yes, I am arguing that. There is no way the US is the world power it was through the late 1800s and beyond, without centuries of coercion [0]. [0] https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-economy https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-eco...
    - philwelch 7y ago
      One of the key arguments against slavery was that it help the South back from being able to have a modern, industrial economy. If slavery was the key ingredient to being a world power, the slave states would not have had their asses thoroughly handed to them by the free states in the Civil War.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- DuskStar 7y ago
  > Women were naturally granted the right to vote in 1776 without any strife or suffering. Depends on the state, if I'm remembering correctly. New Jersey allowed certain women and african americans to vote until (I believe) 1806. Dirtying history to make our advancements larger is also dangerous.
  - ikeyany 7y ago
    Provide some evidence then. What percentage of women could vote then? What percentage of blacks? If it's not a significant amount, your reply isn't much of a rebuttal.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      The original requirements were the same for everyone - white or black, male or female - though thanks to the doctrine of coverture, married women would not have the assets to qualify. (Married women could generally not own property independent of their husband) Coverture was not applied universally however, and many married women still voted. See [0] > That all inhabitants of this Colony, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote for Representatives in Council and Assembly; and also for all other public officers, that shall be elected by the people of the county at large. It's probably also worth noting that these restrictions applied to men, too. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_Jersey_State_Constitution#Constitution_of_1776 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_Jersey_Stat...
      - yellowapple 7y ago
        On that note, a couple states in the Western US were early adopters of womens' suffrage, mostly to boost their numbers and/or to sway women into moving west; Wyoming is the famous example, but Colorado, Idaho, and - surprisingly enough - Utah all had formally legalized womens' right to vote in general elections prior to 1900.
      - 7y ago
- pesmhey 7y ago
  Oh, didn’t you read? All men are created equal. It’s a classless society!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ehmish 7y ago
The ruling part of the early United States were English settlers, so they brought their high trust society with them.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Eh. Reality is more complicated. Some of the English settlers were decent people with functional societies. Some of them were basically the christian Taliban.
  - yocheckit 7y ago
    No, they were not. The heavily religious communities in the early US didn't display any of the tribal behaviour commonly seen amongst the Taliban (which are the cause of most of the governance issues in Afghanistan), just the extremely strict adherence to religion which is in some ways a superficial similarity as the average person in those times was as fanatically religious as only the most hardcore Christian today. For instance Cousin marriage wasn't a thing at all (which is one of the main ways of maintaining tribal cohesion) while it is still extremely common in Afghanistan and the Middle East today.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      Certain English settlers were such hardliners and so terrible to everyone who didn't adhere perfectly to their doctrine that Rhode Island and parts of New Hampshire were settled be people expressly fleeing them. No, they didn't have the tribal politics but the hard-line religiousness and correspondingly harsh treatment of everyone else was the comparison I was going for any anyone who has studied the first hundred years of the Massachusetts Bay Colony knows that comparison is apt. Nit picking over the particulars of how they ran their society does not make them any less a bunch of fundamentalist jerks.
pesmhey 7y ago
The Fed?

by yborg 7y ago

moate 7y ago

That's a take. I'm assuming you mean "The US as created by white European invaders who had to decimate a local indigenous population using slavery and warfare after purging itself of imperial overlords" right? Like the US in its current coast to coast form didn't spring out fully formed from Liberty's bosom. It also had centuries of European innovation that lead to it.

ikeyany 7y ago

There was never any coercion in the US. All those black people simply begged to be chained and beaten for centuries. The tribes? They just really wanted to travel to Oklahoma. Women were naturally granted the right to vote in 1776 without any strife or suffering. Whitewashing history to make it more palatable is dangerous.

jjoonathan 7y ago
We're talking about whether or not coercion is necessary to bootstrap a high-trust society. Are you arguing that those types of coercion were fundamentally necessary to establish the United States? Or are you forgetting this context in order to have something to be upset about?
- ikeyany 7y ago
  Yes, I am arguing that. There is no way the US is the world power it was through the late 1800s and beyond, without centuries of coercion [0]. [0] https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-economy https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-eco...
  - philwelch 7y ago
    One of the key arguments against slavery was that it help the South back from being able to have a modern, industrial economy. If slavery was the key ingredient to being a world power, the slave states would not have had their asses thoroughly handed to them by the free states in the Civil War.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
DuskStar 7y ago
> Women were naturally granted the right to vote in 1776 without any strife or suffering. Depends on the state, if I'm remembering correctly. New Jersey allowed certain women and african americans to vote until (I believe) 1806. Dirtying history to make our advancements larger is also dangerous.
- ikeyany 7y ago
  Provide some evidence then. What percentage of women could vote then? What percentage of blacks? If it's not a significant amount, your reply isn't much of a rebuttal.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    The original requirements were the same for everyone - white or black, male or female - though thanks to the doctrine of coverture, married women would not have the assets to qualify. (Married women could generally not own property independent of their husband) Coverture was not applied universally however, and many married women still voted. See [0] > That all inhabitants of this Colony, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds proclamation money, clear estate in the same, and have resided within the county in which they claim a vote for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entitled to vote for Representatives in Council and Assembly; and also for all other public officers, that shall be elected by the people of the county at large. It's probably also worth noting that these restrictions applied to men, too. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_Jersey_State_Constitution#Constitution_of_1776 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_Jersey_Stat...
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      On that note, a couple states in the Western US were early adopters of womens' suffrage, mostly to boost their numbers and/or to sway women into moving west; Wyoming is the famous example, but Colorado, Idaho, and - surprisingly enough - Utah all had formally legalized womens' right to vote in general elections prior to 1900.
    - 7y ago
pesmhey 7y ago
Oh, didn’t you read? All men are created equal. It’s a classless society!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

ehmish 7y ago

The ruling part of the early United States were English settlers, so they brought their high trust society with them.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Eh. Reality is more complicated. Some of the English settlers were decent people with functional societies. Some of them were basically the christian Taliban.
- yocheckit 7y ago
  No, they were not. The heavily religious communities in the early US didn't display any of the tribal behaviour commonly seen amongst the Taliban (which are the cause of most of the governance issues in Afghanistan), just the extremely strict adherence to religion which is in some ways a superficial similarity as the average person in those times was as fanatically religious as only the most hardcore Christian today. For instance Cousin marriage wasn't a thing at all (which is one of the main ways of maintaining tribal cohesion) while it is still extremely common in Afghanistan and the Middle East today.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Certain English settlers were such hardliners and so terrible to everyone who didn't adhere perfectly to their doctrine that Rhode Island and parts of New Hampshire were settled be people expressly fleeing them. No, they didn't have the tribal politics but the hard-line religiousness and correspondingly harsh treatment of everyone else was the comparison I was going for any anyone who has studied the first hundred years of the Massachusetts Bay Colony knows that comparison is apt. Nit picking over the particulars of how they ran their society does not make them any less a bunch of fundamentalist jerks.

pesmhey 7y ago

The Fed?