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With these OTA updates how can regulators determine if there was "illegal" software on a car? Daimler doesn't do OTA but Tesla for example could remove autopil

With these OTA updates how can regulators determine if there was "illegal" software on a car? Daimler doesn't do OTA but Tesla for example could remove autopilot code in an update that caused a death and there would be no way to test for it without getting access to the old firmware or source code. Tesla would not hand those out without court order which would require suspicion.

thefounder 7y ago
It takes time for regulators to catch-up with the technology but there are solutions.
this_user 7y ago
You could require some kind of audit trail for software updates. That kind of thing is not a new problem, and there are definitely technical and regulatory solutions for that.
vkou 7y ago
> With these OTA updates how can regulators determine if there was "illegal" software on a car? Raid an office, check the source repo and the release log, question engineers, asking questions about what was pushed out OTA, and what wasn't. If your company did not keep such audit and repo logs, you are probably not SOX-compliant (Or the european equivalent thereof), and they should assume the worst in your intent. Regulators and police aren't some kind of unthawed-from-the-ice-age caveman lawyers. They have as many tools to answer this question as any engineer working at these firms.
rurban 7y ago
That's trivial to check because we know exactly which Bosch ECUs contain this Audi cheating software (= all), and we can also trivially determine which car actually uses it. (= most) The SW is flashed, not OTA. You'll have to do that in service. And the flash update just sets the low temp. limit trigger to 0, disabling the cheat controller. We know that for years already. The list is public, but no newspaper is printing it. The scandal is only how protected these criminals are. From the affected ~10 carmakers only 3 were punished so far.
pedrocr 7y ago
This seems simple enough. If you are doing updates (OTA or not) to software that is part of the car certification then each update needs to be certified as well and regulators need to be on the lookout for cars running uncertified updates. I'd be surprised if this wasn't the case already. OTA introduces nothing new to the problem. Car dealers do software updates during service regularly already.

thefounder 7y ago

It takes time for regulators to catch-up with the technology but there are solutions.

this_user 7y ago

You could require some kind of audit trail for software updates. That kind of thing is not a new problem, and there are definitely technical and regulatory solutions for that.

vkou 7y ago

> With these OTA updates how can regulators determine if there was "illegal" software on a car? Raid an office, check the source repo and the release log, question engineers, asking questions about what was pushed out OTA, and what wasn't. If your company did not keep such audit and repo logs, you are probably not SOX-compliant (Or the european equivalent thereof), and they should assume the worst in your intent. Regulators and police aren't some kind of unthawed-from-the-ice-age caveman lawyers. They have as many tools to answer this question as any engineer working at these firms.

rurban 7y ago

That's trivial to check because we know exactly which Bosch ECUs contain this Audi cheating software (= all), and we can also trivially determine which car actually uses it. (= most) The SW is flashed, not OTA. You'll have to do that in service. And the flash update just sets the low temp. limit trigger to 0, disabling the cheat controller. We know that for years already. The list is public, but no newspaper is printing it. The scandal is only how protected these criminals are. From the affected ~10 carmakers only 3 were punished so far.

pedrocr 7y ago

This seems simple enough. If you are doing updates (OTA or not) to software that is part of the car certification then each update needs to be certified as well and regulators need to be on the lookout for cars running uncertified updates. I'd be surprised if this wasn't the case already. OTA introduces nothing new to the problem. Car dealers do software updates during service regularly already.