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>One thing to consider is that life circumstances that make us stressed and feel suicidal are transitory, but suicide is permanent Mine haven't been transitory

>One thing to consider is that life circumstances that make us stressed and feel suicidal are transitory, but suicide is permanent Mine haven't been transitory. If anything they get worse. Sure it's sensible for a kid to see if they can get out into life and improve their circumstances, or someone in some acute situation like losing a loved one etc to navigate the situation, but the "it gets better" and "permanent solution to a temporary problem" tropes are fallacies beyond a select few groups.

yters 7y ago
Well, one counter point is the religious one. If one holds onto hope until the natural end of life, then they are guaranteed a great final situation in heaven that will never get worse. Conversely, despair and suicide are often considered the sure way to enter hell. In this hypothetical scenario, the tropes of "it gets better" and "permanent solution to a temporary problem" are literally true, regardless of how difficult a person's life is.
- hestipod 7y ago
  I didn't downvote you and don't like how that tool is used as a "disagree" button. However, you are describing the well known "Pascal's Wager" and it doesn't do it for me. IF, and I don't think it likely, there is a god who would punish someone for not being able to endure suffering, and who has created a place like "hell" then we are all screwed anyway because that's a horrible and cruel thing for anyone to do, let alone a creator. It all sounds like a very human construct to me anyway since so many humans do love inflicting punishment to feel some sense of control and justice.
  - yters 7y ago
    There are a lot of qualifications around the scenario I wrote. For example, in Catholicism, for something to be a mortal sin a person needs to have at least performed the action voluntarily and with full knowledge of its gravity. So, there are caveats that could potentially make suicide not punishable by hell. However, going to hell is a possibility that we would probably all want to do our best to avoid, although it should not be our only or even primary motivation. Additionally, the concept of hell is surprisingly prevalent across many religions and philosophies. It is not just in the Christian New Testament. Plato describes something like hell in the dialogue Republic, for those who have repeatedly chosen their passions over their reason. There is a similar concept in Buddhism. The idea is that hell is not a place people get thrown arbitrarily for actions beyond their control, but it is essentially a place they put themselves through their repeated, knowledgeable and voluntary choices. All that being said, thinking about the possibility of hell I believe was helpful at least to make me reconsider whether things in my life were really all that bad, all things considered. Trying my best to imagine endless torment (tough to do, try it!) is at the very least sobering and a bit of a wakeup call.

yters 7y ago

Well, one counter point is the religious one. If one holds onto hope until the natural end of life, then they are guaranteed a great final situation in heaven that will never get worse. Conversely, despair and suicide are often considered the sure way to enter hell. In this hypothetical scenario, the tropes of "it gets better" and "permanent solution to a temporary problem" are literally true, regardless of how difficult a person's life is.

hestipod 7y ago
I didn't downvote you and don't like how that tool is used as a "disagree" button. However, you are describing the well known "Pascal's Wager" and it doesn't do it for me. IF, and I don't think it likely, there is a god who would punish someone for not being able to endure suffering, and who has created a place like "hell" then we are all screwed anyway because that's a horrible and cruel thing for anyone to do, let alone a creator. It all sounds like a very human construct to me anyway since so many humans do love inflicting punishment to feel some sense of control and justice.
- yters 7y ago
  There are a lot of qualifications around the scenario I wrote. For example, in Catholicism, for something to be a mortal sin a person needs to have at least performed the action voluntarily and with full knowledge of its gravity. So, there are caveats that could potentially make suicide not punishable by hell. However, going to hell is a possibility that we would probably all want to do our best to avoid, although it should not be our only or even primary motivation. Additionally, the concept of hell is surprisingly prevalent across many religions and philosophies. It is not just in the Christian New Testament. Plato describes something like hell in the dialogue Republic, for those who have repeatedly chosen their passions over their reason. There is a similar concept in Buddhism. The idea is that hell is not a place people get thrown arbitrarily for actions beyond their control, but it is essentially a place they put themselves through their repeated, knowledgeable and voluntary choices. All that being said, thinking about the possibility of hell I believe was helpful at least to make me reconsider whether things in my life were really all that bad, all things considered. Trying my best to imagine endless torment (tough to do, try it!) is at the very least sobering and a bit of a wakeup call.