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It’s dystopian to prevent only suicide and not the causes. It invokes a feeling of being somewhat like a farm animal: you exist to consume and work for the bene

It’s dystopian to prevent only suicide and not the causes. It invokes a feeling of being somewhat like a farm animal: you exist to consume and work for the benefit of others, and if you’re unhappy that’s your problem. You certainly can’t decide to escape in any way, by design.

radcon 7y ago
I remember watching a documentary on assisted suicide where they said that many people who are approved never follow through, but knowing they have a way out provides a great deal of relief. With that in mind, I can easily see how things like fences might make the problem worse as you said. People will feel even more trapped and helpless when what they need is the opposite.
- DanBC 7y ago
  Being polite: we know fences work.
  - radcon 7y ago
    > Being polite: I'm sure you're already aware of this, but condescendingly stating that you're being polite is the opposite of being polite. > we know fences work. No, you don't know that. You may know they solve the visible problem (suicide), but you don't know if they do anything to alleviate the conditions that lead to suicide. Is there anyone who believes fences make people happier or less depressed?
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Have you ever read the studies of people prevented from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge?
    - DanBC 7y ago
      Heightened suicide risk is often both _short term_ and _situation specific_. Access to support at this time can save lives. People cannot access support if they're dead, so alongside providing immediate support you also need to reduce access to means and methods. I've never claimed that the only thing we need to do is install fences.
  - lmm 7y ago
    We know fences reduce numbers of suicides. That tells us nothing about what effect they have on numbers of people living fulfilling lives.
    - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
      I'd actually be pretty shocked if fences did have an impact on suicide rate, only on that type of suicide in that immediate area.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      Heightened suicide risk is often short term and situation specific. I didn't say this (because I thought it was obvious) but installing fences is not meant to make people happier. It's meant to reduce access to means and methods. This is part, but only part, of preventing suicide. It's a very important part, and it's the bit that we have best evidence for. In the short term it's the bit that has most impact.
      - lmm 7y ago
        > I didn't say this (because I thought it was obvious) but installing fences is not meant to make people happier. That's not what the post you replied to was saying. The worry is that being "fenced in" would actively make people less happy.
trevyn 7y ago
On the other hand, recognizing that one is a farm animal is the first step to getting off the farm.
onemoresoop 7y ago
Yes it is. Reminds me of the case where NYU installed fences in the Bobst library to prevent more suicides [0]. Basically it comes down to not being concerned about the causes but find a solution to prevent the suicides on the premises of the campus. I see it as, go kill yourself someplace else, we don't want the negative image. [0] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nyu-bobst-library-suicides-aluminum-screens_n_1812743 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nyu-bobst-library-suicides-al...
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  A significant percentage of people who come across an obstacle to their planned method of suicide will never try again. They are not intended to go elsewhere.
  - MrMember 7y ago
    How would a statistic like this be calculated? We can talk to people who were going to commit suicide, encountered an obstacle, and decided not to. How can we determine how many people decided to commit suicide, encountered an obstacle, and used some other method?
    - onemoresoop 7y ago
      I think that what they're getting at is that once the impulse is not met with success it ceases its grip and might lessen to some extent. Not sure I agree with it but at the same time it is possible that if the means of committing suicide were more easily available and required less upfront effort a lot wouldn't have the time to hesitate and commit to it
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Look them up later on and see if they're dead. https://medium.com/@ennyman/a-lesson-from-29-golden-gate-suicide-attempts-a42f4ef3f970 https://medium.com/@ennyman/a-lesson-from-29-golden-gate-sui...
    - DanBC 7y ago
DanBC 7y ago
But this isn't preventing only suicide -- it's one part of a package to reduce suicide. It's a very important part, and you must have reducing access to means and methods if you want to reduce the numbers of people killing themselves.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  I disagree. Preventing suicide, even impulsive suicide, is impossible. I could enumerate all the ways I can see just looking around me but I don't want to ruin my day and yours. However, seeing that people are scared of this doesn't exactly make me think that society cares about me, it implies they're scared of how unhappy people are and have no idea what to do about it.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    You are wrong. It is quite well established that blocking a specific method of suicide can prevent people from trying. What you say is true in a technical sense but is completely ignorant of the actual ways that humans behave.
    - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
      Yes, it can block people from trying that specific method. I have no idea how you would measure the impact on preventing people from trying at all. Do you have a source? I'm curious about how they measured it.
      - smogcutter 7y ago
        This was a quick google away: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/health/blocking-the-paths-to-suicide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/health/blocking-the-paths...
      - astura 7y ago
        https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92319314 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=923193... >Anderson points to another example where simply making a change in people's access to instruments of suicide dramatically lowered the suicide rate. In England, death by asphyxiation from breathing oven fumes had accounted for roughly half of all suicides up until the 1970s, when Britain began converting ovens from coal gas, which contains lots of carbon monoxide, to natural gas, which has almost none. During that time, suicides plummeted roughly 30 percent — and the numbers haven't changed since.

radcon 7y ago

I remember watching a documentary on assisted suicide where they said that many people who are approved never follow through, but knowing they have a way out provides a great deal of relief. With that in mind, I can easily see how things like fences might make the problem worse as you said. People will feel even more trapped and helpless when what they need is the opposite.

DanBC 7y ago
Being polite: we know fences work.
- radcon 7y ago
  > Being polite: I'm sure you're already aware of this, but condescendingly stating that you're being polite is the opposite of being polite. > we know fences work. No, you don't know that. You may know they solve the visible problem (suicide), but you don't know if they do anything to alleviate the conditions that lead to suicide. Is there anyone who believes fences make people happier or less depressed?
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Have you ever read the studies of people prevented from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge?
  - DanBC 7y ago
    Heightened suicide risk is often both _short term_ and _situation specific_. Access to support at this time can save lives. People cannot access support if they're dead, so alongside providing immediate support you also need to reduce access to means and methods. I've never claimed that the only thing we need to do is install fences.
- lmm 7y ago
  We know fences reduce numbers of suicides. That tells us nothing about what effect they have on numbers of people living fulfilling lives.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    I'd actually be pretty shocked if fences did have an impact on suicide rate, only on that type of suicide in that immediate area.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    Heightened suicide risk is often short term and situation specific. I didn't say this (because I thought it was obvious) but installing fences is not meant to make people happier. It's meant to reduce access to means and methods. This is part, but only part, of preventing suicide. It's a very important part, and it's the bit that we have best evidence for. In the short term it's the bit that has most impact.
    - lmm 7y ago
      > I didn't say this (because I thought it was obvious) but installing fences is not meant to make people happier. That's not what the post you replied to was saying. The worry is that being "fenced in" would actively make people less happy.

trevyn 7y ago

On the other hand, recognizing that one is a farm animal is the first step to getting off the farm.

onemoresoop 7y ago

Yes it is. Reminds me of the case where NYU installed fences in the Bobst library to prevent more suicides [0]. Basically it comes down to not being concerned about the causes but find a solution to prevent the suicides on the premises of the campus. I see it as, go kill yourself someplace else, we don't want the negative image. [0] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nyu-bobst-library-suicides-aluminum-screens_n_1812743 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nyu-bobst-library-suicides-al...

lazyasciiart 7y ago
A significant percentage of people who come across an obstacle to their planned method of suicide will never try again. They are not intended to go elsewhere.
- MrMember 7y ago
  How would a statistic like this be calculated? We can talk to people who were going to commit suicide, encountered an obstacle, and decided not to. How can we determine how many people decided to commit suicide, encountered an obstacle, and used some other method?
  - onemoresoop 7y ago
    I think that what they're getting at is that once the impulse is not met with success it ceases its grip and might lessen to some extent. Not sure I agree with it but at the same time it is possible that if the means of committing suicide were more easily available and required less upfront effort a lot wouldn't have the time to hesitate and commit to it
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Look them up later on and see if they're dead. https://medium.com/@ennyman/a-lesson-from-29-golden-gate-suicide-attempts-a42f4ef3f970 https://medium.com/@ennyman/a-lesson-from-29-golden-gate-sui...
  - DanBC 7y ago

DanBC 7y ago

But this isn't preventing only suicide -- it's one part of a package to reduce suicide. It's a very important part, and you must have reducing access to means and methods if you want to reduce the numbers of people killing themselves.

SomeOldThrow 7y ago
I disagree. Preventing suicide, even impulsive suicide, is impossible. I could enumerate all the ways I can see just looking around me but I don't want to ruin my day and yours. However, seeing that people are scared of this doesn't exactly make me think that society cares about me, it implies they're scared of how unhappy people are and have no idea what to do about it.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  You are wrong. It is quite well established that blocking a specific method of suicide can prevent people from trying. What you say is true in a technical sense but is completely ignorant of the actual ways that humans behave.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    Yes, it can block people from trying that specific method. I have no idea how you would measure the impact on preventing people from trying at all. Do you have a source? I'm curious about how they measured it.
    - smogcutter 7y ago
      This was a quick google away: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/health/blocking-the-paths-to-suicide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/health/blocking-the-paths...
    - astura 7y ago
      https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92319314 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=923193... >Anderson points to another example where simply making a change in people's access to instruments of suicide dramatically lowered the suicide rate. In England, death by asphyxiation from breathing oven fumes had accounted for roughly half of all suicides up until the 1970s, when Britain began converting ovens from coal gas, which contains lots of carbon monoxide, to natural gas, which has almost none. During that time, suicides plummeted roughly 30 percent — and the numbers haven't changed since.