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This underscores the sadness in burning oil. Plastics allow us to do and make so many useful things. We should be stockpiling oil for this sort of use and only

by ianai 7y ago

This underscores the sadness in burning oil. Plastics allow us to do and make so many useful things. We should be stockpiling oil for this sort of use and only burning it when no other option exists.

mc32 7y ago
We can make plastics from other raw materials, plants included. Interestingly, bioplastics can be mfg with CO2.
- ianai 7y ago
  Very cool! Just another reason I love plants.
  - rpiguy 7y ago
    Plants require water. Yes we can solve the plastic problem by growing more plants, but then we will have a water problem as plants, heavy industry, chemical production, recycling (which uses a lot of water), power production (most use steam), live stock, and human water consumption all compete. I mean I guess we could melt the ice caps for more water...
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
      What an incredible false dichotomy. Which do you want, less fossil fuels, or melting the ice caps? Oh wait! I forgot that burning fossil fuels is already melting the ice caps.
      - ryanmercer 7y ago
        >What an incredible false dichotomy. I think their point is more "We're already running out of water, aquifer depletion is a thing on multiple continents and there are now cities that have officially run out of fresh water. Adding even more farming, which requires water input above and beyond natural rainfall, is just going to worsen another dire issue".
        smileysteve 7y ago
        > adding even more farming, which requires water input above and beyond natural rainfall Hemp (referenced in a sibling thread) is known as weed because it is drought tolerant and often requires less water than non invasive species. Kudzu and Bamboo are also invasive species that are drought tolerant when compared to most and even natural land uses. You're missing the mass amounts of water to extract plastic from oil.
        ryanmercer 7y ago
        >You're missing the mass amounts of water to extract plastic from oil. The water that effectively stays in a closed system and can likely be treated on-site for nearly immediate reuse? The water that doesn't largely evaporate (70 percent of the annual precipitation returns to the atmosphere by evaporation, I assume water from irrigation is still several tens of percent) and cause soil erosion? It takes 180 L of water to produce 1 kg of plastic and 302-492 L for 1kg of hemp based on a quick Google query.
        soulofmischief 7y ago
        ExxonMobil sits at the epicenter of one of the top 3 purest water tables in the nation, squat on the Mississippi River in Baton Rouge. [0] The insane amount of water they use for oil refinement is causing the entire surrounding area to leech hard water. What was once the softest table in the region is now becoming infested with salt water. I have seen the water table schematics, I used to live a couple of miles from the plant and I can tell you that even in the last decade it's gotten noticeably worse. This is objectively worse than the alternative, using hemp for biodiesel and bioplastics which requires far less water and doesn't ruin the environment. [0] https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/article_cadd93c6-5e3d-11e7-b179-8391aaa68204.html https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/article_cadd93c...
        ryanmercer 7y ago
        That water isn't being used to make plastic though. It's being used to refine crude oil into: gasoline, kerosene, fuel oil, gas oil, naphtha, reduced crude etc. That stuff is going to be refined with or without the plastic end use purely for the various other things that get manufactured from crude oil. Something like 10% is what gets used to as raw chemicals for further manufacture of goods. Overall about 5% of the original crude gets manufactured into PVC/polystyrene/nylon/PU/PP/polyester etc. I was specifically comparing the amount of water to manufacture 1kg of plastic and 1kg of dry hemp.
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    “Well, what would you say if there was such a plant that could substitute for all wood pulp paper, all fossil fuels, would make most of our fibers naturally, make everything from dynamite to plastic, grows in all 50 states and that one acre of it would replace 4.1 acres of trees, and that if you used about 6% of the U.S. land to raise it as an energy crop, even on our marginal lands, this plant would produce all 75 quadrillion billion BTUs needed to run America each year? Would that help save the planet?” ... “Yeah? What is it?” “Hemp.” ... “Well, Mr. Herer, did you know that hemp is also marijuana?” “Yes, of course I know, I’ve been writing about it for about 40 hours a week for the past 17 years.” “Well, you know marijuana’s illegal, don’t you? You can’t use it.” “Not even to save the world?” “No. It’s illegal”, he sternly informed me. “You cannot use something illegal.” https://jackherer.com/emperor-3/chapter-2/ https://jackherer.com/emperor-3/chapter-2/
    - ianai 7y ago
      In the US, all I can say is write your senators, house representative, and donate to campaigns with sensible policies. It does seem closer to reality now than ever before now.
LastZactionHero 7y ago
I'm not a plastics guy (so correct me if I'm wrong) but my impression is that it's not either-or. Some parts of the crude oil is better for fuels, some for plastics. It's so cheap because it's a byproduct of the refining we were going to do anyway. I've been told that the plastic companies would prefer to burn it for energy for disposal, the idea being that it was destined to be energy, and that path had a short detour as a cup. Not saying its a great plan, but it's a plan that let's them sell more plastic.
emptysands 7y ago
Google Green PE.

by ianai 7y ago

This underscores the sadness in burning oil. Plastics allow us to do and make so many useful things. We should be stockpiling oil for this sort of use and only burning it when no other option exists.

mc32 7y ago

We can make plastics from other raw materials, plants included. Interestingly, bioplastics can be mfg with CO2.

ianai 7y ago
Very cool! Just another reason I love plants.
- rpiguy 7y ago
  Plants require water. Yes we can solve the plastic problem by growing more plants, but then we will have a water problem as plants, heavy industry, chemical production, recycling (which uses a lot of water), power production (most use steam), live stock, and human water consumption all compete. I mean I guess we could melt the ice caps for more water...
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    What an incredible false dichotomy. Which do you want, less fossil fuels, or melting the ice caps? Oh wait! I forgot that burning fossil fuels is already melting the ice caps.
    - ryanmercer 7y ago
      >What an incredible false dichotomy. I think their point is more "We're already running out of water, aquifer depletion is a thing on multiple continents and there are now cities that have officially run out of fresh water. Adding even more farming, which requires water input above and beyond natural rainfall, is just going to worsen another dire issue".
      - smileysteve 7y ago
        > adding even more farming, which requires water input above and beyond natural rainfall Hemp (referenced in a sibling thread) is known as weed because it is drought tolerant and often requires less water than non invasive species. Kudzu and Bamboo are also invasive species that are drought tolerant when compared to most and even natural land uses. You're missing the mass amounts of water to extract plastic from oil.
        ryanmercer 7y ago
        >You're missing the mass amounts of water to extract plastic from oil. The water that effectively stays in a closed system and can likely be treated on-site for nearly immediate reuse? The water that doesn't largely evaporate (70 percent of the annual precipitation returns to the atmosphere by evaporation, I assume water from irrigation is still several tens of percent) and cause soil erosion? It takes 180 L of water to produce 1 kg of plastic and 302-492 L for 1kg of hemp based on a quick Google query.
        soulofmischief 7y ago
        ExxonMobil sits at the epicenter of one of the top 3 purest water tables in the nation, squat on the Mississippi River in Baton Rouge. [0] The insane amount of water they use for oil refinement is causing the entire surrounding area to leech hard water. What was once the softest table in the region is now becoming infested with salt water. I have seen the water table schematics, I used to live a couple of miles from the plant and I can tell you that even in the last decade it's gotten noticeably worse. This is objectively worse than the alternative, using hemp for biodiesel and bioplastics which requires far less water and doesn't ruin the environment. [0] https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/article_cadd93c6-5e3d-11e7-b179-8391aaa68204.html https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/article_cadd93c...
        ryanmercer 7y ago
        That water isn't being used to make plastic though. It's being used to refine crude oil into: gasoline, kerosene, fuel oil, gas oil, naphtha, reduced crude etc. That stuff is going to be refined with or without the plastic end use purely for the various other things that get manufactured from crude oil. Something like 10% is what gets used to as raw chemicals for further manufacture of goods. Overall about 5% of the original crude gets manufactured into PVC/polystyrene/nylon/PU/PP/polyester etc. I was specifically comparing the amount of water to manufacture 1kg of plastic and 1kg of dry hemp.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  “Well, what would you say if there was such a plant that could substitute for all wood pulp paper, all fossil fuels, would make most of our fibers naturally, make everything from dynamite to plastic, grows in all 50 states and that one acre of it would replace 4.1 acres of trees, and that if you used about 6% of the U.S. land to raise it as an energy crop, even on our marginal lands, this plant would produce all 75 quadrillion billion BTUs needed to run America each year? Would that help save the planet?” ... “Yeah? What is it?” “Hemp.” ... “Well, Mr. Herer, did you know that hemp is also marijuana?” “Yes, of course I know, I’ve been writing about it for about 40 hours a week for the past 17 years.” “Well, you know marijuana’s illegal, don’t you? You can’t use it.” “Not even to save the world?” “No. It’s illegal”, he sternly informed me. “You cannot use something illegal.” https://jackherer.com/emperor-3/chapter-2/ https://jackherer.com/emperor-3/chapter-2/
  - ianai 7y ago
    In the US, all I can say is write your senators, house representative, and donate to campaigns with sensible policies. It does seem closer to reality now than ever before now.

LastZactionHero 7y ago

I'm not a plastics guy (so correct me if I'm wrong) but my impression is that it's not either-or. Some parts of the crude oil is better for fuels, some for plastics. It's so cheap because it's a byproduct of the refining we were going to do anyway. I've been told that the plastic companies would prefer to burn it for energy for disposal, the idea being that it was destined to be energy, and that path had a short detour as a cup. Not saying its a great plan, but it's a plan that let's them sell more plastic.

emptysands 7y ago

Google Green PE.