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"(Is it possible the future will become a refuge for the rich, who experience life as a sequence of exquisite events and who might not understand the concept of

"(Is it possible the future will become a refuge for the rich, who experience life as a sequence of exquisite events and who might not understand the concept of entropy as relief or escape?)" Can physically and emotionally healthy people actually view death as a relief or escape? This idea seems completely insane to me. As an aside, people who want to die shouldn't/won't be forced to use longevity enhancing therapies to live longer, but I really think some psychological care should be considered for anyone refusing them.

n4r9 7y ago
I don't know about "relief" or "escape" but I'm comfortable with the idea of eventually having "had enough" of life. Kind of tangential: the human-style characters in Iain M Banks' fantastic and thoughtful Culture series of novels tend to come to this decision after a couple or a few hundred years. Some times they go into deep sleep to be awoken based on some external criteria (for example, when the war that they conduct with another ~~species~~ (edit: society) is proven to be morally justified).
- lmm 7y ago
  What today's fiction authors write, with no access to life extension technology, doesn't really tell us anything about what the reality would be like. It's very rare to find a healthy person - even in their '90s or '100s - who actually wants to die. Many more younger people imagine they would want to die at such an age. I suspect the same will be true for 200 or 400 year olds.
  - n4r9 7y ago
    You raise a very good point. I hadn't thought of looking up research on attitudes towards death in actual elderly people. It's an unusual one because I'm specifically thinking about people who might want to die simply because they've seen and gotten from life all that they want, not people who are fed up with the (present-day) privations of old age. I suspect you're right that only a very small proportion of today's elderly match this The closest thing I found after a little looking around is a recent initiative in the Netherlands called "Completed Life" - which seeks to extend the option of euthanasia to relatively healthy elderly people who have decided that their life is complete - and some associated research [0][1]. Lastly, on a slightly pedantic note, I think it's valid to invoke fictional worlds in response to someone who says that it's "insane" to feel a certain way. [0] http://www.elsvanwijngaarden.com/ http://www.elsvanwijngaarden.com/ [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953615002889 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027795361...
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    One account I have heard from nurses in Geritology is the apparent importance of "will to live" - they have witnessed many times death following them psychologically giving up. There could be some chicken vs egg factor (do they lose the will from health being hopeless or does their health decline with their psychological state influencing immune system, and to what extent?). That or spurious human pattern recognition (superstition) but it is possible that there is some literal survivalship bias.
PavlovsCat 7y ago
> Can physically and emotionally healthy people actually view death as a relief or escape? I think before that should have come the question whether a person who is only invested in their own life, and not interested in the tapestry or river of life, for lack of a better word, could be considered emotionally healthy? Yes, I want to see and experience life, my own and that of others, but I'd rather die at some point, and know other life will exist, than live forever and squat on it. We can't be forever young, that is, some things will never be new to us again. Yeah, life is still fun, but not as fun as it could be for someone else. To me, that matters. from https://www.um.edu.mt/library/oar/bitstream/123456789/20935/1/The%20Capacity%20to%20Begin-80%20Arendt%27s%20Concept%20of%20%27Natality%27.pdf https://www.um.edu.mt/library/oar/bitstream/123456789/20935/... > Arendt argues that human action is contained within the notion of plurality as the most basic condition of human life, which in turn rests on her concept of 'natality'. In an almost poetical way she writes in this same essay how the world is constantly being refilled by strangers, outsiders and newcomers who act and react in an unforeseeable manner, in ways that cannot be calculated or predicated by those already familiar and stationed there, who will eventually leave and be replaced by others. The very fact that we come into the world through natural birth shows that the world is continuously being transformed and renewed through birth. Thus, 'natality' highlights this emphasis on the capacity of new beginnings with each and every birth. I'd say natality more than makes up for mortality, while immortality removes natality, and doesn't even begin to cover the loss. I'd rather there is something beautiful I miss out on, than something mediocre I get to experience, doubly so if it's made mediocre by my insisting on experiencing everything that goes on. And on top of that, there is the mediocrity of the lens through which we experience things, our own mediocrity, that also should not be increased lightly. New life makes life, the universe and everything better, it just happens to not extend my own life to infinity. But I can't have it both ways, not in an intellectualy and morally honest way, they way I see it. If everybody was truly immortal, as we are now, and for the reasons we want it, everybody will start to suck super badly real quick, and they'll suck too much to even notice it. The majestic and ever fresh river of life would turn into a petty, stinky puddle. Or I could wish for immortality myself, and mortality for everyone else -- but what would that make me, and what about friendship and love?
- Guillaume86 7y ago
kace91 7y ago
> Can physically and emotionally healthy people actually view death as a relief or escape? I obviously don't have the experience of living an "overextended" life, but I'd imagine that it would depend at least partially on whether longevity extends to the people around you. Seeing the people you knew and love die is brutal, living that through several generations might get you to a point where you don't want to keep experiencing it anymore.
- magduf 7y ago
  If life extension is technological, it's pretty hard to imagine how it wouldn't extend to the people around you. Technologies almost always get much, much cheaper and available to the masses after an initial period. In such a scenario, you're going to see some people you knew and love die, but usually because of things like accidents, not old age, so it'll be entirely random, unlike now where elderly people have to watch all their friends die off around them, something they didn't experience that much in their younger years.
  - Amygaz 7y ago
    The kind of biotechnology we are talking about will be more like a cocktail of drugs and gene therapies. The price of entry will be in the millions, and maintenance in the tens of thousands per year. It will take many generations to be affordable to the masses
    - magduf 7y ago
      Oh please. Dentistry involves extremely personalized care, with crowns custom-made for every patient (these days by automated machines) and work done by highly-paid specialists on an individual basis, yet the masses are generally able to afford it. Once stuff gets out of the patent phase (20 years), it's going to become very cheap with tons of competition.
jailtime4u 7y ago
I really think some psychological care should be considered for anyone refusing them. You really want to shove your hand up other people's asses, and make them speak your words from their mouth? I'll never give you the power to decide how long I should live. I'll only grant you the leeway that you should be able to defend yourself, such that others trying to die should not be capable of taking you with them. That's what this is really about. You're afraid of their fearlessness encroaching on your clingy desire to reside in your meatbag for as long as possible. (not an entirely pejorative sentiment, but let's call a spade a spade)
- traverseda 7y ago
  Most of the people I know with that view would be very happy with whole brain emulation, so it's not really about the meatbag. You sound like you think you reside somewhere other than your "meatbag" when you die? Of course if that was true we wouldn't be nearly this uppity about the whole death thing.
  - zepto 7y ago
    How many whole brain emulations? If one is good, why not have many?
    - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
      Finally I can have friends who think just like me.
  - sleepytime4u 7y ago
    Actually, I sincerely doubt that whole brain emulation does anything for anyone, beyond placating the surviving relatives of the deceased with perhaps a prosthetic biomechanoid placebo. Every individual that has ever uttered the words "upload my consciousness" doesn't even deserve the label, quack. Rube is more like it. With brain emulation, we'll likely encounter a degree of technological snakeoil to rival the "invigorating elixirs" of the nineteenth century. No, I don't buy the idea that human sentience is compatible with wired circuits that carry electric currents, or even photon-bearing fiber optics. Not even from the "Ship Of Theseus" perspective. My point is that death is essentially the big dreamless sleep, maybe with a magical time travel journey across geologic timescales to a future beyond the next supernova, when one might wake up in another part of the universe, beneath a different sun. I mean, really, who knows why any of us have disgorged our progeny beneath this one?
qwsxyh 7y ago
I consider anyone who doesn't want to die in this current word psychologically unsound. Once again, downvoted for holding a Controversial Opinion that the hive mind doesn't like.
- chr1 7y ago
  Could you please elaborate why do you consider us psychologically unsound. Have you watched any talks by Aubrey de Grey?
  - qwsxyh 7y ago
    Because living in a world where you live to work for the next 30 years until climate change kills us all is not a good prospect.
    - chr1 7y ago
      First of all "kills us all" is highly exaggerated and what happens largely depends on what we do in this years. But even assuming the kills us all part is correct, dying now is worse prospect than dying in 30 years so i don't see how that can be an argument for psychological unsoundness. > Once again, downvoted for holding a Controversial Opinion that the hive mind doesn't like. I did not downvote you, but i don't think you were downvoted for holding a "Controversial Opinion", unfortunately many people hold opinion similar to yours, you were downvoted because calling some people crazy without giving any explanation why you do it.
      - qwsxyh 7y ago
        The parent comment did the same. I don't see it downvoted.
        chr1 7y ago
        It's not the same, writing style matters in getting your message to the reader, the style of your comment looked hostile, and not motivation nor the logic of your argument were discernible from it.
thom 7y ago
Shame we don't have Camus around to address the problem, tbh.

n4r9 7y ago

I don't know about "relief" or "escape" but I'm comfortable with the idea of eventually having "had enough" of life. Kind of tangential: the human-style characters in Iain M Banks' fantastic and thoughtful Culture series of novels tend to come to this decision after a couple or a few hundred years. Some times they go into deep sleep to be awoken based on some external criteria (for example, when the war that they conduct with another ~~species~~ (edit: society) is proven to be morally justified).

lmm 7y ago
What today's fiction authors write, with no access to life extension technology, doesn't really tell us anything about what the reality would be like. It's very rare to find a healthy person - even in their '90s or '100s - who actually wants to die. Many more younger people imagine they would want to die at such an age. I suspect the same will be true for 200 or 400 year olds.
- n4r9 7y ago
  You raise a very good point. I hadn't thought of looking up research on attitudes towards death in actual elderly people. It's an unusual one because I'm specifically thinking about people who might want to die simply because they've seen and gotten from life all that they want, not people who are fed up with the (present-day) privations of old age. I suspect you're right that only a very small proportion of today's elderly match this The closest thing I found after a little looking around is a recent initiative in the Netherlands called "Completed Life" - which seeks to extend the option of euthanasia to relatively healthy elderly people who have decided that their life is complete - and some associated research [0][1]. Lastly, on a slightly pedantic note, I think it's valid to invoke fictional worlds in response to someone who says that it's "insane" to feel a certain way. [0] http://www.elsvanwijngaarden.com/ http://www.elsvanwijngaarden.com/ [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953615002889 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027795361...
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  One account I have heard from nurses in Geritology is the apparent importance of "will to live" - they have witnessed many times death following them psychologically giving up. There could be some chicken vs egg factor (do they lose the will from health being hopeless or does their health decline with their psychological state influencing immune system, and to what extent?). That or spurious human pattern recognition (superstition) but it is possible that there is some literal survivalship bias.

PavlovsCat 7y ago

> Can physically and emotionally healthy people actually view death as a relief or escape? I think before that should have come the question whether a person who is only invested in their own life, and not interested in the tapestry or river of life, for lack of a better word, could be considered emotionally healthy? Yes, I want to see and experience life, my own and that of others, but I'd rather die at some point, and know other life will exist, than live forever and squat on it. We can't be forever young, that is, some things will never be new to us again. Yeah, life is still fun, but not as fun as it could be for someone else. To me, that matters. from https://www.um.edu.mt/library/oar/bitstream/123456789/20935/1/The%20Capacity%20to%20Begin-80%20Arendt%27s%20Concept%20of%20%27Natality%27.pdf https://www.um.edu.mt/library/oar/bitstream/123456789/20935/... > Arendt argues that human action is contained within the notion of plurality as the most basic condition of human life, which in turn rests on her concept of 'natality'. In an almost poetical way she writes in this same essay how the world is constantly being refilled by strangers, outsiders and newcomers who act and react in an unforeseeable manner, in ways that cannot be calculated or predicated by those already familiar and stationed there, who will eventually leave and be replaced by others. The very fact that we come into the world through natural birth shows that the world is continuously being transformed and renewed through birth. Thus, 'natality' highlights this emphasis on the capacity of new beginnings with each and every birth. I'd say natality more than makes up for mortality, while immortality removes natality, and doesn't even begin to cover the loss. I'd rather there is something beautiful I miss out on, than something mediocre I get to experience, doubly so if it's made mediocre by my insisting on experiencing everything that goes on. And on top of that, there is the mediocrity of the lens through which we experience things, our own mediocrity, that also should not be increased lightly. New life makes life, the universe and everything better, it just happens to not extend my own life to infinity. But I can't have it both ways, not in an intellectualy and morally honest way, they way I see it. If everybody was truly immortal, as we are now, and for the reasons we want it, everybody will start to suck super badly real quick, and they'll suck too much to even notice it. The majestic and ever fresh river of life would turn into a petty, stinky puddle. Or I could wish for immortality myself, and mortality for everyone else -- but what would that make me, and what about friendship and love?

Guillaume86 7y ago

kace91 7y ago

> Can physically and emotionally healthy people actually view death as a relief or escape? I obviously don't have the experience of living an "overextended" life, but I'd imagine that it would depend at least partially on whether longevity extends to the people around you. Seeing the people you knew and love die is brutal, living that through several generations might get you to a point where you don't want to keep experiencing it anymore.

magduf 7y ago
If life extension is technological, it's pretty hard to imagine how it wouldn't extend to the people around you. Technologies almost always get much, much cheaper and available to the masses after an initial period. In such a scenario, you're going to see some people you knew and love die, but usually because of things like accidents, not old age, so it'll be entirely random, unlike now where elderly people have to watch all their friends die off around them, something they didn't experience that much in their younger years.
- Amygaz 7y ago
  The kind of biotechnology we are talking about will be more like a cocktail of drugs and gene therapies. The price of entry will be in the millions, and maintenance in the tens of thousands per year. It will take many generations to be affordable to the masses
  - magduf 7y ago
    Oh please. Dentistry involves extremely personalized care, with crowns custom-made for every patient (these days by automated machines) and work done by highly-paid specialists on an individual basis, yet the masses are generally able to afford it. Once stuff gets out of the patent phase (20 years), it's going to become very cheap with tons of competition.

jailtime4u 7y ago

I really think some psychological care should be considered for anyone refusing them. You really want to shove your hand up other people's asses, and make them speak your words from their mouth? I'll never give you the power to decide how long I should live. I'll only grant you the leeway that you should be able to defend yourself, such that others trying to die should not be capable of taking you with them. That's what this is really about. You're afraid of their fearlessness encroaching on your clingy desire to reside in your meatbag for as long as possible. (not an entirely pejorative sentiment, but let's call a spade a spade)

traverseda 7y ago
Most of the people I know with that view would be very happy with whole brain emulation, so it's not really about the meatbag. You sound like you think you reside somewhere other than your "meatbag" when you die? Of course if that was true we wouldn't be nearly this uppity about the whole death thing.
- zepto 7y ago
  How many whole brain emulations? If one is good, why not have many?
  - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
    Finally I can have friends who think just like me.
- sleepytime4u 7y ago
  Actually, I sincerely doubt that whole brain emulation does anything for anyone, beyond placating the surviving relatives of the deceased with perhaps a prosthetic biomechanoid placebo. Every individual that has ever uttered the words "upload my consciousness" doesn't even deserve the label, quack. Rube is more like it. With brain emulation, we'll likely encounter a degree of technological snakeoil to rival the "invigorating elixirs" of the nineteenth century. No, I don't buy the idea that human sentience is compatible with wired circuits that carry electric currents, or even photon-bearing fiber optics. Not even from the "Ship Of Theseus" perspective. My point is that death is essentially the big dreamless sleep, maybe with a magical time travel journey across geologic timescales to a future beyond the next supernova, when one might wake up in another part of the universe, beneath a different sun. I mean, really, who knows why any of us have disgorged our progeny beneath this one?

qwsxyh 7y ago

I consider anyone who doesn't want to die in this current word psychologically unsound. Once again, downvoted for holding a Controversial Opinion that the hive mind doesn't like.

chr1 7y ago
Could you please elaborate why do you consider us psychologically unsound. Have you watched any talks by Aubrey de Grey?
- qwsxyh 7y ago
  Because living in a world where you live to work for the next 30 years until climate change kills us all is not a good prospect.
  - chr1 7y ago
    First of all "kills us all" is highly exaggerated and what happens largely depends on what we do in this years. But even assuming the kills us all part is correct, dying now is worse prospect than dying in 30 years so i don't see how that can be an argument for psychological unsoundness. > Once again, downvoted for holding a Controversial Opinion that the hive mind doesn't like. I did not downvote you, but i don't think you were downvoted for holding a "Controversial Opinion", unfortunately many people hold opinion similar to yours, you were downvoted because calling some people crazy without giving any explanation why you do it.
    - qwsxyh 7y ago
      The parent comment did the same. I don't see it downvoted.
      - chr1 7y ago
        It's not the same, writing style matters in getting your message to the reader, the style of your comment looked hostile, and not motivation nor the logic of your argument were discernible from it.

thom 7y ago

Shame we don't have Camus around to address the problem, tbh.