5 ms·

I don't know all the myths, but to me it appears that heroes before Holmes were praised for bravery, physicality, devotion to country/god, or another dimension.

I don't know all the myths, but to me it appears that heroes before Holmes were praised for bravery, physicality, devotion to country/god, or another dimension. I'd love to know of any that were truly cerebral heroes -- maybe Loki is the closest, although at chaotic neutral it's a stretch to consider him a hero. (Also mostly familiar with Western myths. Odysseus was praised for his cleverness, which is a kissing cousin... but it was his cleverness in war, which makes it more of a 3rd cousin IMO.)

goto11 7y ago
Odysseys was not just clever in war. For example he uses wordplay and disguise to escape from capture by the Cyclop. Loki and Odysseus are examples of "trickstes", legendary characters who use cunning rather than strength to get ahead. They are often also morally ambiguous and subverts the rules of society though, while detective stories like Holmes are about restoring order and justice, even if the detective have to bend the rules a bit along the way. Oedipus is perhaps a closer parallel - Oedipus Rex is basically a detective story where he has to investigate who killed King Laius in order to lift a curse. Turns out it was Oedipus himself! Justice is restored, but of course at great cost to Oedipus himself.
- edmundsauto 7y ago
  Is Holmes really about justice, or is he about solving a difficult problem?
  - goto11 7y ago
    Homes the character cares mostly about the challenge, but compared to a "trickster" character like Loki, he is not subversive. He uses solves the crime, he doesn't commit it.
pmoriarty 7y ago
Odysseus was also a masterful orator and was clever in much more than war. One famous example was him stopping up the ears of his crew while they were sailing past the sirens, so the sirens would not lure the sailors to their death by their song. Odysseus kept his own ears open so he could hear their song yet saved his own life by having himself tied to the mast. There are plenty of other clever heroes in myths, epics, sagas, fairy tales, and folk tales of all cultures and eras. Sherlock Holmes was very far from first on that front. However, he did exhibit a kind of attention to detail and systematic analysis that was (to my knowledge) rare before him. Some previous examples to exist, however -- some of Poe's work[1] and Voltaire's Zadig[2] being two famous ones. [1] - https://www.worlds-best-detective-crime-and-murder-mystery-books.com/poeinfluenceondoyle01-article.html https://www.worlds-best-detective-crime-and-murder-mystery-b... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig
freddie_mercury 7y ago
In the original stories Holmes is clearly not (just) a cerebral hero. He is an expert boxer ("He was undoubtedly one of the finest boxers of his weight that I have ever seen"), an expert swordsman ("Is an expert singlestick player, boxer and swordsman"), and is described as being extremely strong strength ("Few men were capable of greater muscular effort.") Holmes is constantly praised for his bravery, physicality, and devotion to country ("The Adventure of the Naval Treaty" or "The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans"). I guess I just don't see as much of a gap between Holmes and, say, Odysseus or Robin Hood, as you do.
- edmundsauto 7y ago
  Admittedly, I'm not much of a scholar on the topic other than gen-ed classes on it. I appreciate your take. Both Holmes and Odysseus are frequently at odds with their ostensible superiors, who try to assert control over both. However, both characters confirm that they're basically on another level from the "normies" and do whatever the hell they want, consequences be damned. That's an interesting archetype -- be so good that others can't control you. (Although it might actually be better described as hubris than a valid career positioning strategy.)

goto11 7y ago

Odysseys was not just clever in war. For example he uses wordplay and disguise to escape from capture by the Cyclop. Loki and Odysseus are examples of "trickstes", legendary characters who use cunning rather than strength to get ahead. They are often also morally ambiguous and subverts the rules of society though, while detective stories like Holmes are about restoring order and justice, even if the detective have to bend the rules a bit along the way. Oedipus is perhaps a closer parallel - Oedipus Rex is basically a detective story where he has to investigate who killed King Laius in order to lift a curse. Turns out it was Oedipus himself! Justice is restored, but of course at great cost to Oedipus himself.

edmundsauto 7y ago
Is Holmes really about justice, or is he about solving a difficult problem?
- goto11 7y ago
  Homes the character cares mostly about the challenge, but compared to a "trickster" character like Loki, he is not subversive. He uses solves the crime, he doesn't commit it.

pmoriarty 7y ago

Odysseus was also a masterful orator and was clever in much more than war. One famous example was him stopping up the ears of his crew while they were sailing past the sirens, so the sirens would not lure the sailors to their death by their song. Odysseus kept his own ears open so he could hear their song yet saved his own life by having himself tied to the mast. There are plenty of other clever heroes in myths, epics, sagas, fairy tales, and folk tales of all cultures and eras. Sherlock Holmes was very far from first on that front. However, he did exhibit a kind of attention to detail and systematic analysis that was (to my knowledge) rare before him. Some previous examples to exist, however -- some of Poe's work[1] and Voltaire's Zadig[2] being two famous ones. [1] - https://www.worlds-best-detective-crime-and-murder-mystery-books.com/poeinfluenceondoyle01-article.html https://www.worlds-best-detective-crime-and-murder-mystery-b... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig

freddie_mercury 7y ago

In the original stories Holmes is clearly not (just) a cerebral hero. He is an expert boxer ("He was undoubtedly one of the finest boxers of his weight that I have ever seen"), an expert swordsman ("Is an expert singlestick player, boxer and swordsman"), and is described as being extremely strong strength ("Few men were capable of greater muscular effort.") Holmes is constantly praised for his bravery, physicality, and devotion to country ("The Adventure of the Naval Treaty" or "The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans"). I guess I just don't see as much of a gap between Holmes and, say, Odysseus or Robin Hood, as you do.

edmundsauto 7y ago
Admittedly, I'm not much of a scholar on the topic other than gen-ed classes on it. I appreciate your take. Both Holmes and Odysseus are frequently at odds with their ostensible superiors, who try to assert control over both. However, both characters confirm that they're basically on another level from the "normies" and do whatever the hell they want, consequences be damned. That's an interesting archetype -- be so good that others can't control you. (Although it might actually be better described as hubris than a valid career positioning strategy.)