5 ms·

I don't know why anyone even touching the "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum would even consider Sanders. Anyone alienated by this proposal was alienat

by untog 7y ago

I don't know why anyone even touching the "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum would even consider Sanders. Anyone alienated by this proposal was alienated long ago, so I really don't think this is going to have a big impact on him.

creddit 7y ago
Agreed, hence my point "I guess his gamble is that he had already lost all those potential voters".
ajross 7y ago
I don't know why anyone even pretends there is a "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum. A few writers at the WSJ and a banker or three does not a demographic make. No one cares about that stuff. No one. Everyone wants the government to spend on their priorities. Everyone thinks spending on other people's priorities is wasteful and unsustainable. Everyone is wrong. The galaxy brain end of things is the realization that, yes, US government debt is almost literally free money in every sense of the word and we're absolutely bonkers not to be spending it on objectively useful junk like education.
- sgjohnson 7y ago
  > Everyone I don’t want the government to spend at all. I don’t want a government at all. Yes, I’d be happy to pay a toll on every other road and every time I cross a bridge. Yes, I’d be happy to carry a firearm at all times (the SCOTUS ruled that the police don’t really have the duty to protect you anyway). Most ambulances are private already.
- creddit 7y ago
  > I don't know why anyone even pretends there is a "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum. A few writers at the WSJ and a banker or three does not a demographic make. How does a perspective like that gel with a state like Texas? https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/per-capita-state-spending/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Per%20Capita%20State%20Spending%22,%22sort%22:%22desc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/per-capita-state-s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per... > The galaxy brain end of things is the realization that, yes, US government debt is almost literally free money in every sense of the word How does a perspective like this gel with any of the numerous hyperinflation states that have tried this?
  - ajross 7y ago
    > How does a perspective like this gel with any of the numerous hyperinflation states that have tried this? None of them were issuing US debt. Have you ever recommended a home purchase as an investment? US bonds are cheaper than mortgage interest.
    - creddit 7y ago
      So because mortgage interest > US bond interest, US gov debt is free money? The debt still needs to be repaid and that repayment has to either come from inflation or from taxes. Neither of those are "free". You can't treat it like it is and any perspective taken that it is free is one that clearly doesn't take into account the realities of other economies. It might be relatively low cost money on the margin, but you're just borrowing from future citizens or planning to default. Unless you believe the US government has absurd returns on its spending which of course doesn't gel with US GDP growth in relation to US spending growth...
      - ajross 7y ago
        > Unless you believe the US government has absurd returns on its spending which of course doesn't gel with US GDP growth in relation to US spending growth... Citation needed. In fact US growth relative to revenue has been consistently and considerably higher than the rest of the industrialized world for effectively all of the past century. But it doesn't really matter, because you're making a tribal point and not an economic one. A year ago, I'm quite certain you were nowhere to be found when the government decided to spend $1T of that same free money and hand it to wealthy taxpayers. But try to do that same thing for recent students and you all lose your fucking minds? Yeah. Tribal. I said it up thread: no one cares about this stuff. You don't care about this stuff. You just don't want the government spending its free money on the wrong people.
        chrisco255 7y ago
        AJ, letting people keep the money they earn can cause the economy to expand. It happened in the 80s, 90s, 00s, and it's happening now. Any engineer worth their salt should know that every choice comes with trade-offs. And finding the optimal mix of taxation, regulation, and free market capitalism is a difficult balancing act. If the economy stops growing, our huge debt becomes a huge problem. The only reason money is cheap is because the U.S. has a track record of growth. If that growth stops due to excessive regulation or taxation...money gets more expensive and long-term tax rolls go down...meanwhile debt stays static and the cost of servicing that debt consumes a higher portion of Federal tax revenues. Millions of people care about this stuff. Your arm chair observation proves nothing, says nothing. There's no such thing as free money. It's beyond ignorant to say so.
- chrisco255 7y ago
  There's no such thing as free money. The economy and the Fed does not run on magic. Financial ruin is a very real possibility for the United States.
  - what_is_this 7y ago
    Sure, but it does not seem that any conservative voters are troubled by the increasing debt when a Democrat is not in office. Otherwise approval ratings wouldn't be so high
- kenneth 7y ago
  So you haven't heard about the Libertarian party, which got close to 5% of the popular vote last election? There is absolutely a large demographic (which includes libertarians but also goes far beyond) which wants to drastically reduce the size of government spending.

by untog 7y ago

creddit 7y ago

Agreed, hence my point "I guess his gamble is that he had already lost all those potential voters".

ajross 7y ago

I don't know why anyone even pretends there is a "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum. A few writers at the WSJ and a banker or three does not a demographic make. No one cares about that stuff. No one. Everyone wants the government to spend on their priorities. Everyone thinks spending on other people's priorities is wasteful and unsustainable. Everyone is wrong. The galaxy brain end of things is the realization that, yes, US government debt is almost literally free money in every sense of the word and we're absolutely bonkers not to be spending it on objectively useful junk like education.

sgjohnson 7y ago
> Everyone I don’t want the government to spend at all. I don’t want a government at all. Yes, I’d be happy to pay a toll on every other road and every time I cross a bridge. Yes, I’d be happy to carry a firearm at all times (the SCOTUS ruled that the police don’t really have the duty to protect you anyway). Most ambulances are private already.
creddit 7y ago
> I don't know why anyone even pretends there is a "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum. A few writers at the WSJ and a banker or three does not a demographic make. How does a perspective like that gel with a state like Texas? https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/per-capita-state-spending/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Per%20Capita%20State%20Spending%22,%22sort%22:%22desc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/per-capita-state-s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per... > The galaxy brain end of things is the realization that, yes, US government debt is almost literally free money in every sense of the word How does a perspective like this gel with any of the numerous hyperinflation states that have tried this?
- ajross 7y ago
  > How does a perspective like this gel with any of the numerous hyperinflation states that have tried this? None of them were issuing US debt. Have you ever recommended a home purchase as an investment? US bonds are cheaper than mortgage interest.
  - creddit 7y ago
    So because mortgage interest > US bond interest, US gov debt is free money? The debt still needs to be repaid and that repayment has to either come from inflation or from taxes. Neither of those are "free". You can't treat it like it is and any perspective taken that it is free is one that clearly doesn't take into account the realities of other economies. It might be relatively low cost money on the margin, but you're just borrowing from future citizens or planning to default. Unless you believe the US government has absurd returns on its spending which of course doesn't gel with US GDP growth in relation to US spending growth...
    - ajross 7y ago
      > Unless you believe the US government has absurd returns on its spending which of course doesn't gel with US GDP growth in relation to US spending growth... Citation needed. In fact US growth relative to revenue has been consistently and considerably higher than the rest of the industrialized world for effectively all of the past century. But it doesn't really matter, because you're making a tribal point and not an economic one. A year ago, I'm quite certain you were nowhere to be found when the government decided to spend $1T of that same free money and hand it to wealthy taxpayers. But try to do that same thing for recent students and you all lose your fucking minds? Yeah. Tribal. I said it up thread: no one cares about this stuff. You don't care about this stuff. You just don't want the government spending its free money on the wrong people.
      - chrisco255 7y ago
        AJ, letting people keep the money they earn can cause the economy to expand. It happened in the 80s, 90s, 00s, and it's happening now. Any engineer worth their salt should know that every choice comes with trade-offs. And finding the optimal mix of taxation, regulation, and free market capitalism is a difficult balancing act. If the economy stops growing, our huge debt becomes a huge problem. The only reason money is cheap is because the U.S. has a track record of growth. If that growth stops due to excessive regulation or taxation...money gets more expensive and long-term tax rolls go down...meanwhile debt stays static and the cost of servicing that debt consumes a higher portion of Federal tax revenues. Millions of people care about this stuff. Your arm chair observation proves nothing, says nothing. There's no such thing as free money. It's beyond ignorant to say so.
chrisco255 7y ago
There's no such thing as free money. The economy and the Fed does not run on magic. Financial ruin is a very real possibility for the United States.
- what_is_this 7y ago
  Sure, but it does not seem that any conservative voters are troubled by the increasing debt when a Democrat is not in office. Otherwise approval ratings wouldn't be so high
kenneth 7y ago
So you haven't heard about the Libertarian party, which got close to 5% of the popular vote last election? There is absolutely a large demographic (which includes libertarians but also goes far beyond) which wants to drastically reduce the size of government spending.