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>first literary hero on the gifted spectrum Why do you make this claim that there were no "gifted" heros in books before 1892? That seems pretty unlikely. Not

>first literary hero on the gifted spectrum Why do you make this claim that there were no "gifted" heros in books before 1892? That seems pretty unlikely. Not even in myths?

asark 7y ago
I can only see that being kinda true on a technicality since modern literary heroes are probably hard to find in fiction before the development of popular adventure stories and, thence, genre fic, which was still pretty young when Holmes came around. Plenty of protagonists known for their intelligence before then. Often even just for their intelligence, not tied in with a ton of other gifts. They just had a tendency to be, you know, tragic. Less with the triumphing-against-the-odds of modern literary heroes. Daedalus, say, to pick a fairly old one. Gonna have an even harder time finding the triumphing-sort coupled with capital-S Science or capital-I Invention much earlier than Holmes, for obvious reasons. Clever characters are all over folk tales and such, of course, deducing left and right and triumphing often enough, but they're not gonna be Holmes. You need science—scientific police investigation, such as it was then—plus the modern literary hero, for that.
edmundsauto 7y ago
I don't know all the myths, but to me it appears that heroes before Holmes were praised for bravery, physicality, devotion to country/god, or another dimension. I'd love to know of any that were truly cerebral heroes -- maybe Loki is the closest, although at chaotic neutral it's a stretch to consider him a hero. (Also mostly familiar with Western myths. Odysseus was praised for his cleverness, which is a kissing cousin... but it was his cleverness in war, which makes it more of a 3rd cousin IMO.)
- goto11 7y ago
  Odysseys was not just clever in war. For example he uses wordplay and disguise to escape from capture by the Cyclop. Loki and Odysseus are examples of "trickstes", legendary characters who use cunning rather than strength to get ahead. They are often also morally ambiguous and subverts the rules of society though, while detective stories like Holmes are about restoring order and justice, even if the detective have to bend the rules a bit along the way. Oedipus is perhaps a closer parallel - Oedipus Rex is basically a detective story where he has to investigate who killed King Laius in order to lift a curse. Turns out it was Oedipus himself! Justice is restored, but of course at great cost to Oedipus himself.
  - edmundsauto 7y ago
    Is Holmes really about justice, or is he about solving a difficult problem?
    - goto11 7y ago
      Homes the character cares mostly about the challenge, but compared to a "trickster" character like Loki, he is not subversive. He uses solves the crime, he doesn't commit it.
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  Odysseus was also a masterful orator and was clever in much more than war. One famous example was him stopping up the ears of his crew while they were sailing past the sirens, so the sirens would not lure the sailors to their death by their song. Odysseus kept his own ears open so he could hear their song yet saved his own life by having himself tied to the mast. There are plenty of other clever heroes in myths, epics, sagas, fairy tales, and folk tales of all cultures and eras. Sherlock Holmes was very far from first on that front. However, he did exhibit a kind of attention to detail and systematic analysis that was (to my knowledge) rare before him. Some previous examples to exist, however -- some of Poe's work[1] and Voltaire's Zadig[2] being two famous ones. [1] - https://www.worlds-best-detective-crime-and-murder-mystery-books.com/poeinfluenceondoyle01-article.html https://www.worlds-best-detective-crime-and-murder-mystery-b... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig
- freddie_mercury 7y ago
  In the original stories Holmes is clearly not (just) a cerebral hero. He is an expert boxer ("He was undoubtedly one of the finest boxers of his weight that I have ever seen"), an expert swordsman ("Is an expert singlestick player, boxer and swordsman"), and is described as being extremely strong strength ("Few men were capable of greater muscular effort.") Holmes is constantly praised for his bravery, physicality, and devotion to country ("The Adventure of the Naval Treaty" or "The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans"). I guess I just don't see as much of a gap between Holmes and, say, Odysseus or Robin Hood, as you do.
  - edmundsauto 7y ago
    Admittedly, I'm not much of a scholar on the topic other than gen-ed classes on it. I appreciate your take. Both Holmes and Odysseus are frequently at odds with their ostensible superiors, who try to assert control over both. However, both characters confirm that they're basically on another level from the "normies" and do whatever the hell they want, consequences be damned. That's an interesting archetype -- be so good that others can't control you. (Although it might actually be better described as hubris than a valid career positioning strategy.)
ghaff 7y ago
The story format that Holmes sprang from wasn't all that much older. I'm inclined to think there are other examples but I can't really think of any. With respect to detectives specifically, Wilkie Collins wrote what is generally considered the first detective story a few years earlier. But Sergeant Cuff isn't central to the story the way Holmes was in Doyle's stories.
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  The history of the detective story goes back further than Holmes, Poe, or Collins. The first Sherlock Holmes story was A Study in Scarlet[1] which appeared in 1887. Wilkie Collins' The Moonstone[2] appeared in 1868. Poe's first detective story was The Murders in the Rue Morgue[3] which appeared in 1841. Before that was ETA Hoffmann's Mademoiselle de Scuderi[4] (featuring a female detective, no less), appearing in 1819. Long before that was Voltaire's Zadig[5], which appeared in 1747. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_in_Scarlet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_in_Scarlet [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Murders_in_the_Rue_Morgue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Murders_in_the_Rue_Morgue [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moonstone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moonstone [4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mademoiselle_de_Scuderi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mademoiselle_de_Scuderi [5] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig
blacksqr 7y ago
"Gifted" means more than just "smart." He was the first literary protagonist to have clearly defined personality traits associated today with a spectrum that ranges from "gifted" to "Asperger's" to "autism". He was capable of intense focus. He obsessively pursued deep knowledge of subjects that interested him. He paid little attention to social norms. He didn't give automatic respect to authority figures. Boredom and lack of challenge were serious problems for him. These are traits that have only been recognized as facets of a defined personality type in the past couple of generations. People of this type were invisible a century ago. Today they drive significant fractions of society and culture. Thus Sherlock Holmes attracts ever-increasing attention and interest. Because the type he represents is gaining influence and status in contemporary society.

>first literary hero on the gifted spectrum Why do you make this claim that there were no "gifted" heros in books before 1892? That seems pretty unlikely. Not even in myths?

asark 7y ago

I can only see that being kinda true on a technicality since modern literary heroes are probably hard to find in fiction before the development of popular adventure stories and, thence, genre fic, which was still pretty young when Holmes came around. Plenty of protagonists known for their intelligence before then. Often even just for their intelligence, not tied in with a ton of other gifts. They just had a tendency to be, you know, tragic. Less with the triumphing-against-the-odds of modern literary heroes. Daedalus, say, to pick a fairly old one. Gonna have an even harder time finding the triumphing-sort coupled with capital-S Science or capital-I Invention much earlier than Holmes, for obvious reasons. Clever characters are all over folk tales and such, of course, deducing left and right and triumphing often enough, but they're not gonna be Holmes. You need science—scientific police investigation, such as it was then—plus the modern literary hero, for that.

edmundsauto 7y ago

I don't know all the myths, but to me it appears that heroes before Holmes were praised for bravery, physicality, devotion to country/god, or another dimension. I'd love to know of any that were truly cerebral heroes -- maybe Loki is the closest, although at chaotic neutral it's a stretch to consider him a hero. (Also mostly familiar with Western myths. Odysseus was praised for his cleverness, which is a kissing cousin... but it was his cleverness in war, which makes it more of a 3rd cousin IMO.)

goto11 7y ago
Odysseys was not just clever in war. For example he uses wordplay and disguise to escape from capture by the Cyclop. Loki and Odysseus are examples of "trickstes", legendary characters who use cunning rather than strength to get ahead. They are often also morally ambiguous and subverts the rules of society though, while detective stories like Holmes are about restoring order and justice, even if the detective have to bend the rules a bit along the way. Oedipus is perhaps a closer parallel - Oedipus Rex is basically a detective story where he has to investigate who killed King Laius in order to lift a curse. Turns out it was Oedipus himself! Justice is restored, but of course at great cost to Oedipus himself.
- edmundsauto 7y ago
  Is Holmes really about justice, or is he about solving a difficult problem?
  - goto11 7y ago
    Homes the character cares mostly about the challenge, but compared to a "trickster" character like Loki, he is not subversive. He uses solves the crime, he doesn't commit it.
pmoriarty 7y ago
Odysseus was also a masterful orator and was clever in much more than war. One famous example was him stopping up the ears of his crew while they were sailing past the sirens, so the sirens would not lure the sailors to their death by their song. Odysseus kept his own ears open so he could hear their song yet saved his own life by having himself tied to the mast. There are plenty of other clever heroes in myths, epics, sagas, fairy tales, and folk tales of all cultures and eras. Sherlock Holmes was very far from first on that front. However, he did exhibit a kind of attention to detail and systematic analysis that was (to my knowledge) rare before him. Some previous examples to exist, however -- some of Poe's work[1] and Voltaire's Zadig[2] being two famous ones. [1] - https://www.worlds-best-detective-crime-and-murder-mystery-books.com/poeinfluenceondoyle01-article.html https://www.worlds-best-detective-crime-and-murder-mystery-b... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig
freddie_mercury 7y ago
In the original stories Holmes is clearly not (just) a cerebral hero. He is an expert boxer ("He was undoubtedly one of the finest boxers of his weight that I have ever seen"), an expert swordsman ("Is an expert singlestick player, boxer and swordsman"), and is described as being extremely strong strength ("Few men were capable of greater muscular effort.") Holmes is constantly praised for his bravery, physicality, and devotion to country ("The Adventure of the Naval Treaty" or "The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans"). I guess I just don't see as much of a gap between Holmes and, say, Odysseus or Robin Hood, as you do.
- edmundsauto 7y ago
  Admittedly, I'm not much of a scholar on the topic other than gen-ed classes on it. I appreciate your take. Both Holmes and Odysseus are frequently at odds with their ostensible superiors, who try to assert control over both. However, both characters confirm that they're basically on another level from the "normies" and do whatever the hell they want, consequences be damned. That's an interesting archetype -- be so good that others can't control you. (Although it might actually be better described as hubris than a valid career positioning strategy.)

ghaff 7y ago

The story format that Holmes sprang from wasn't all that much older. I'm inclined to think there are other examples but I can't really think of any. With respect to detectives specifically, Wilkie Collins wrote what is generally considered the first detective story a few years earlier. But Sergeant Cuff isn't central to the story the way Holmes was in Doyle's stories.

pmoriarty 7y ago
The history of the detective story goes back further than Holmes, Poe, or Collins. The first Sherlock Holmes story was A Study in Scarlet[1] which appeared in 1887. Wilkie Collins' The Moonstone[2] appeared in 1868. Poe's first detective story was The Murders in the Rue Morgue[3] which appeared in 1841. Before that was ETA Hoffmann's Mademoiselle de Scuderi[4] (featuring a female detective, no less), appearing in 1819. Long before that was Voltaire's Zadig[5], which appeared in 1747. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_in_Scarlet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_in_Scarlet [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Murders_in_the_Rue_Morgue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Murders_in_the_Rue_Morgue [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moonstone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moonstone [4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mademoiselle_de_Scuderi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mademoiselle_de_Scuderi [5] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadig

blacksqr 7y ago

"Gifted" means more than just "smart." He was the first literary protagonist to have clearly defined personality traits associated today with a spectrum that ranges from "gifted" to "Asperger's" to "autism". He was capable of intense focus. He obsessively pursued deep knowledge of subjects that interested him. He paid little attention to social norms. He didn't give automatic respect to authority figures. Boredom and lack of challenge were serious problems for him. These are traits that have only been recognized as facets of a defined personality type in the past couple of generations. People of this type were invisible a century ago. Today they drive significant fractions of society and culture. Thus Sherlock Holmes attracts ever-increasing attention and interest. Because the type he represents is gaining influence and status in contemporary society.