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Interesting strategy. Clearly hoping to effectively buy the votes of those with debt but the flip side is he dramatically alienates himself from anyone even app

Interesting strategy. Clearly hoping to effectively buy the votes of those with debt but the flip side is he dramatically alienates himself from anyone even approaching the "fiscally conservative" portion of the political spectrum. I guess his gamble is that he had already lost all those potential voters. Not sure it's a winning strategy. I would not have voted for Bernie before this, but it further reaffirms my fears of his election. The fears are probably largely unfounded as he would be likely blocked by the legislature but who knows.

untog 7y ago
I don't know why anyone even touching the "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum would even consider Sanders. Anyone alienated by this proposal was alienated long ago, so I really don't think this is going to have a big impact on him.
- creddit 7y ago
  Agreed, hence my point "I guess his gamble is that he had already lost all those potential voters".
- ajross 7y ago
  I don't know why anyone even pretends there is a "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum. A few writers at the WSJ and a banker or three does not a demographic make. No one cares about that stuff. No one. Everyone wants the government to spend on their priorities. Everyone thinks spending on other people's priorities is wasteful and unsustainable. Everyone is wrong. The galaxy brain end of things is the realization that, yes, US government debt is almost literally free money in every sense of the word and we're absolutely bonkers not to be spending it on objectively useful junk like education.
  - sgjohnson 7y ago
    > Everyone I don’t want the government to spend at all. I don’t want a government at all. Yes, I’d be happy to pay a toll on every other road and every time I cross a bridge. Yes, I’d be happy to carry a firearm at all times (the SCOTUS ruled that the police don’t really have the duty to protect you anyway). Most ambulances are private already.
  - creddit 7y ago
    > I don't know why anyone even pretends there is a "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum. A few writers at the WSJ and a banker or three does not a demographic make. How does a perspective like that gel with a state like Texas? https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/per-capita-state-spending/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Per%20Capita%20State%20Spending%22,%22sort%22:%22desc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/per-capita-state-s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per... > The galaxy brain end of things is the realization that, yes, US government debt is almost literally free money in every sense of the word How does a perspective like this gel with any of the numerous hyperinflation states that have tried this?
    - ajross 7y ago
      > How does a perspective like this gel with any of the numerous hyperinflation states that have tried this? None of them were issuing US debt. Have you ever recommended a home purchase as an investment? US bonds are cheaper than mortgage interest.
      - creddit 7y ago
        So because mortgage interest > US bond interest, US gov debt is free money? The debt still needs to be repaid and that repayment has to either come from inflation or from taxes. Neither of those are "free". You can't treat it like it is and any perspective taken that it is free is one that clearly doesn't take into account the realities of other economies. It might be relatively low cost money on the margin, but you're just borrowing from future citizens or planning to default. Unless you believe the US government has absurd returns on its spending which of course doesn't gel with US GDP growth in relation to US spending growth...
        ajross 7y ago
        > Unless you believe the US government has absurd returns on its spending which of course doesn't gel with US GDP growth in relation to US spending growth... Citation needed. In fact US growth relative to revenue has been consistently and considerably higher than the rest of the industrialized world for effectively all of the past century. But it doesn't really matter, because you're making a tribal point and not an economic one. A year ago, I'm quite certain you were nowhere to be found when the government decided to spend $1T of that same free money and hand it to wealthy taxpayers. But try to do that same thing for recent students and you all lose your fucking minds? Yeah. Tribal. I said it up thread: no one cares about this stuff. You don't care about this stuff. You just don't want the government spending its free money on the wrong people.
  - chrisco255 7y ago
    There's no such thing as free money. The economy and the Fed does not run on magic. Financial ruin is a very real possibility for the United States.
    - what_is_this 7y ago
      Sure, but it does not seem that any conservative voters are troubled by the increasing debt when a Democrat is not in office. Otherwise approval ratings wouldn't be so high
  - kenneth 7y ago
    So you haven't heard about the Libertarian party, which got close to 5% of the popular vote last election? There is absolutely a large demographic (which includes libertarians but also goes far beyond) which wants to drastically reduce the size of government spending.
xenospn 7y ago
Fiscally conservative people have student loans too.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  If they're truly fiscally conservative then they only have loans they can afford to pay off and a degree that was worth getting.
  - xenospn 7y ago
    No one is truly fiscally conservative. Everyone likes free stuff as long as someone else is paying for it.
supercanuck 7y ago
Fiscally Conservatives? Where are these people you speak of? This is basically a tax cut for the college educated youth to give them more freedom and mobility. After a couple decades of spending on Wars, Banks and Billionaires, why not give handouts to this generation?
- ajross 7y ago
  One good reason is that a $1.6T handout to the "young and educated but not quite poor" is the wrong demographic. If you want to spend that money on an inequality fix (and I agree, we should spend that money on an inequality fix) it should be aimed farther down the ladder. But it's better than nothing.
  - RandomTisk 7y ago
    And if's really justice driving someone, they should be angry at colleges who charges tens of thousands of dollars for degrees they knew going in were going to be worthless. I see forgiving this 1.6T in debt without correcting that system of injustice as compounding injustice even more.
  - lallysingh 7y ago
    I don't think the very poor make up much of the voting population.
  - supercanuck 7y ago
    Are we trying to solve inequality? Look at demographics the millennials are the largest voting group now surpassing the boomers. Student Loans debt is killing them. Millennials are poor compared to their counterparts. Seems good politics if anything. This idea that democrats or republicans are looking for solutions to fix the country is laughable at this point.
ma2rten 7y ago
Not everything is about strategy. Bernie already wanted to make collage free. It would be unfair if he did not also want to erase student loans.
angel_j 7y ago
A fiscal conservative would do what is necessary to make the economy strong, and keep citizens educated. If you think putting decades of economic onus on the future of the economy is a good idea, you're not fiscally conservative.
- seattle_spring 7y ago
  So they'd still be against giving people who recklessly took $200k in loans to study oil painting a free ride.
what_is_this 7y ago
Raising taxes to pay for programs is more fiscally conservative than cutting taxes and raising the deficit

untog 7y ago

I don't know why anyone even touching the "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum would even consider Sanders. Anyone alienated by this proposal was alienated long ago, so I really don't think this is going to have a big impact on him.

creddit 7y ago
Agreed, hence my point "I guess his gamble is that he had already lost all those potential voters".
ajross 7y ago
I don't know why anyone even pretends there is a "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum. A few writers at the WSJ and a banker or three does not a demographic make. No one cares about that stuff. No one. Everyone wants the government to spend on their priorities. Everyone thinks spending on other people's priorities is wasteful and unsustainable. Everyone is wrong. The galaxy brain end of things is the realization that, yes, US government debt is almost literally free money in every sense of the word and we're absolutely bonkers not to be spending it on objectively useful junk like education.
- sgjohnson 7y ago
  > Everyone I don’t want the government to spend at all. I don’t want a government at all. Yes, I’d be happy to pay a toll on every other road and every time I cross a bridge. Yes, I’d be happy to carry a firearm at all times (the SCOTUS ruled that the police don’t really have the duty to protect you anyway). Most ambulances are private already.
- creddit 7y ago
  > I don't know why anyone even pretends there is a "fiscally conservative" end of the spectrum. A few writers at the WSJ and a banker or three does not a demographic make. How does a perspective like that gel with a state like Texas? https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/per-capita-state-spending/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Per%20Capita%20State%20Spending%22,%22sort%22:%22desc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/per-capita-state-s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per... > The galaxy brain end of things is the realization that, yes, US government debt is almost literally free money in every sense of the word How does a perspective like this gel with any of the numerous hyperinflation states that have tried this?
  - ajross 7y ago
    > How does a perspective like this gel with any of the numerous hyperinflation states that have tried this? None of them were issuing US debt. Have you ever recommended a home purchase as an investment? US bonds are cheaper than mortgage interest.
    - creddit 7y ago
      So because mortgage interest > US bond interest, US gov debt is free money? The debt still needs to be repaid and that repayment has to either come from inflation or from taxes. Neither of those are "free". You can't treat it like it is and any perspective taken that it is free is one that clearly doesn't take into account the realities of other economies. It might be relatively low cost money on the margin, but you're just borrowing from future citizens or planning to default. Unless you believe the US government has absurd returns on its spending which of course doesn't gel with US GDP growth in relation to US spending growth...
      - ajross 7y ago
        > Unless you believe the US government has absurd returns on its spending which of course doesn't gel with US GDP growth in relation to US spending growth... Citation needed. In fact US growth relative to revenue has been consistently and considerably higher than the rest of the industrialized world for effectively all of the past century. But it doesn't really matter, because you're making a tribal point and not an economic one. A year ago, I'm quite certain you were nowhere to be found when the government decided to spend $1T of that same free money and hand it to wealthy taxpayers. But try to do that same thing for recent students and you all lose your fucking minds? Yeah. Tribal. I said it up thread: no one cares about this stuff. You don't care about this stuff. You just don't want the government spending its free money on the wrong people.
- chrisco255 7y ago
  There's no such thing as free money. The economy and the Fed does not run on magic. Financial ruin is a very real possibility for the United States.
  - what_is_this 7y ago
    Sure, but it does not seem that any conservative voters are troubled by the increasing debt when a Democrat is not in office. Otherwise approval ratings wouldn't be so high
- kenneth 7y ago
  So you haven't heard about the Libertarian party, which got close to 5% of the popular vote last election? There is absolutely a large demographic (which includes libertarians but also goes far beyond) which wants to drastically reduce the size of government spending.

xenospn 7y ago

Fiscally conservative people have student loans too.

malvosenior 7y ago
If they're truly fiscally conservative then they only have loans they can afford to pay off and a degree that was worth getting.
- xenospn 7y ago
  No one is truly fiscally conservative. Everyone likes free stuff as long as someone else is paying for it.

supercanuck 7y ago

Fiscally Conservatives? Where are these people you speak of? This is basically a tax cut for the college educated youth to give them more freedom and mobility. After a couple decades of spending on Wars, Banks and Billionaires, why not give handouts to this generation?

ajross 7y ago
One good reason is that a $1.6T handout to the "young and educated but not quite poor" is the wrong demographic. If you want to spend that money on an inequality fix (and I agree, we should spend that money on an inequality fix) it should be aimed farther down the ladder. But it's better than nothing.
- RandomTisk 7y ago
  And if's really justice driving someone, they should be angry at colleges who charges tens of thousands of dollars for degrees they knew going in were going to be worthless. I see forgiving this 1.6T in debt without correcting that system of injustice as compounding injustice even more.
- lallysingh 7y ago
  I don't think the very poor make up much of the voting population.
- supercanuck 7y ago
  Are we trying to solve inequality? Look at demographics the millennials are the largest voting group now surpassing the boomers. Student Loans debt is killing them. Millennials are poor compared to their counterparts. Seems good politics if anything. This idea that democrats or republicans are looking for solutions to fix the country is laughable at this point.

ma2rten 7y ago

Not everything is about strategy. Bernie already wanted to make collage free. It would be unfair if he did not also want to erase student loans.

angel_j 7y ago

A fiscal conservative would do what is necessary to make the economy strong, and keep citizens educated. If you think putting decades of economic onus on the future of the economy is a good idea, you're not fiscally conservative.

seattle_spring 7y ago
So they'd still be against giving people who recklessly took $200k in loans to study oil painting a free ride.

what_is_this 7y ago

Raising taxes to pay for programs is more fiscally conservative than cutting taxes and raising the deficit