7 ms·

Right after I’ve finished paying mine off, of course. Do I (and everyone else in my position) get money back? Or did we spend all those years cost-cutting for n

Right after I’ve finished paying mine off, of course. Do I (and everyone else in my position) get money back? Or did we spend all those years cost-cutting for nothing?

hprotagonist 7y ago
"But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’" This is a very bitter pill. But you get to choose how to swallow it.
- CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
  I’m curious, where is that from?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - hprotagonist 7y ago
    'the parable of the workers in the vineyard', one of the weirder and more radical ones. It's a real hard thing to think about, which is probably why it sticks in my mind. It takes every normal rule about sensible economic practices and just stomps on it. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20&version=MSG https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20&vers...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - RandomTisk 7y ago
    Jesus [0]. Now if that 1.6T was the money that Bernie Sander's himself had loaned out to students, I could see the connection here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_Vineyard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_...
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Where else? The Bible. Jesus is trying to point out that it doesn't matter whether you were pious all your life or came to it late. You still get to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
    - hprotagonist 7y ago
      and the Kingdom of Heaven does not have to have anything to do with “what happens to you when you die”. Along with “son of man”, it’s one of the more undefined but well known phrases from the NT. I tend to think it’s got vastly more to do with improving the life we know than it does with anything about “getting to go to heaven if you’re good”
      - RandomTisk 7y ago
        The parable literally starts saying "The Kingdom of heaven is like"... so you can't really escape from that context.
        hprotagonist 7y ago
        What I mean is that the phrase itself is not well defined. Certainly the parable is meant to tell us something about its character, but not necessarily its nature. Until I was in adulthood I figured it meant “heaven”; that is not at all clear, actually. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingship_and_kingdom_of_God#Gospels https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingship_and_kingdom_of_God#...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kbutler 7y ago
  But in Sanders' case 1) it isn't his money (and no, that money doesn't just appear because he wants to spend it), and 2) it sets the expectation of future cancellations, promoting excessive borrowing (moral hazard).
  - kbutler 7y ago
    I'd be interested in opposing views, as there must be some, judging by the reaction, but the above seems very apparent to me - I don't see why people would disagree or consider it controversial. Sanders wants to tax high earners to fund the debt forgiveness, and even if that would be sufficient, those funds would not be available for other spending (e.g., medicare for all, or the next "should be free for all" program - "housing for all", etc.)
perfmode 7y ago
you fulfilled your obligation. so, just carry on with your life.
- rohit2412 7y ago
  So he shouldn't complain about unfair treatment?
- CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
  Agreed. I’m about $3,500 away from paying off the last of my private loans. And although I’m wondering about the implementation details, I’m still OK with it.
- closeparen 7y ago
  What obligation? If this passes, student loans were never an obligation, so he can't have been fulfilling one. Instead he made a gift to the treasury.
  - mlevental 7y ago
    that's like saying crimes committed before a law was overturned weren't crimes. should all the people jailed for pot (that have served their sentences) get time put back on the clock?
    - closeparen 7y ago
      Yes, and that's what we're doing [0]. [0] https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/tns-san-fran-marijuana-conviction.html https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/tns-s...
      - mlevental 7y ago
        i said time put back on the clock, not formality that pretends like it didn't completely ruin their lives.
wallace_f 7y ago
I think you're hosed. Public consciousness is substituting don't oppress people for being in a position of weakness for let's subsidize weakness. Sanders is selling other people your money. Everything he says is "free" or "cancelled" is really taxpayer funded.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  We've wasted $6 trillion (!!!) dollars on the "War On Terror". Forgiving $1.6T in student debt that shouldn't ever have existed if government policy had been properly implemented (appropriate funding levels of higher education institutions) seems like good policy; those student loan servicing dollars will go back into the economy for goods and services they otherwise wouldn't. Fixing poor public policy in this case isn't subsidizing weakness; it's correcting an economic inefficiency. Somewhere between 60-70% of Americans support government funded higher ed; this is simply enacting it a bit later, retroactively (and based on polling, the support is there). To put this into perspective, it ($1.6T) is less than 3 years of US military spending at current funding levels [1]. Pain is to be expected as the country unwinds poor decisions (education and healthcare in its current forms). Macro economic decisions should not be made emotionally, so squash the desire to argue moral hazard. We've burned up far more dollars as a country on far worse decisions. Disclaimer: Sanders supporter, no college, no student loans [1] https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-military-budget-components-challenges-growth-3306320 https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-military-budget-components-ch...
  - forgottenpass 7y ago
    >Fixing poor public policy in this case isn't subsidizing weakness; it's correcting an economic inefficiency. If the government doesn't first fix higher education for people graduating highschool from now into the future, then they're not accomplishing anything. They're just buying votes.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      I expect that to be a part of this initiative. It would not make sense to do otherwise.
jerkstate 7y ago
Same here. I know people who aren’t as well off as I am and need help, but I also know people (more than I can count on one hand) who could pay their student debt off by cutting expenses but aren’t because they are expecting amnesty.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mbrumlow 7y ago
Or those who skipped going to school because they did the math and figured out it was not worth the debt. Can those people go get free degrees too? I don't know what the solution to correct the past problem is. But I don't like setting the precedent that if the masses fuck up and make poor choices that they should get a pass later. I could 100% get behind student lone forgiveness if any degree issued was paid for by debt being forgiven was made null. This protects those who figured out how to pay them off, and those who did not get degrees because of the cost. Each person would be able to chose their degree over debt -- the same decision many of made in the past. To fix the issue moving forward, guaranteed loans need to be done away with and lenders need to weigh risk and validate loans based off merit and a degree's likelihood produce a job to pay off the loan.
- Spivak 7y ago
  Isn't the masses fucking up basically the only time passes like this are given out? Don't get me wrong, it feels super shitty as someone who's paid off their loans but I'm not going to argue if people can make a good economic case that we would all be better off if the existing debt was just ersed. A few people taking out large loans for degrees that didn't end up being worth it is an issue of personal responsibility. When an entire generation does it there's something more systemic going on. I mean how many people on HN can say in good conscience that their Uni education was worth the money? I think mine had value in a life experiences sense but what actually landed me my first job was a passion for tinkering with code and systems that started in HS. Outside of the "having an impressive sounding degree" to put on my resume there's no way that the actual education dollar for dollar it was worth it. I had a few professors that were actually mind opening but it was the exception rather than the rule. I realize that University education is super important to a lot of other fields but it seems like a weird argument to make in a forum of people with CS $50k-$200k CS degrees that probably got eclipsed by less than two years of work experience.
  - rsj_hn 7y ago
    A handful of people make bad decisions, sure, but when large masses start making bad decisions, then there is a serious systematic problem that needs to be addressed beyond the specific financial burden on the students. Just bailing people out without addressing the systematic problem is the worst possible thing you can do. Here are just a few systematic problems: - We send far too many people to universities and have no trade school infrastructure - Our universities cost double per FTE than what other universities cost (per year). Universities are far too expensive with bloated admin staff. - Our universities last far too long and are not selective enough - Our universities allow students to graduate with unmarketable skills. - Our universities are sitting on huge endowments and possess significant real estate assets yet these are not being tapped for the bailout - students are given incorrect information or are not given accurate information about their future expected earnings and debt burdens. - many students choose poor majors - many students borrow too much, and the Federal government guarantees these debts. I would be willing to listen to a comprehensive reform program. Clearly there is a problem that should be addressed. But just bailing people out to let this system continue? That's a terrible idea.
wwweston 7y ago
I wish college had been free for me too -- that would've drastically changed my relationship with where I could decide to attend. But if we generally improve society in any way, it means that some of the difficulties / obstacles that people have faced so far will be more rarely faced (or maybe eliminated) by people who come after the changes. It isn't fair any more than it was fair that people who learned to program in the 80s/90s had to buy their compilers and software and didn't have Stack Exchange. Or, more dramatically, it isn't fair any more than it's fair for people who suffered or died from infectious illness before antibiotics. As the saying goes: we all sit in the shade of trees we did not plant, we all drink from wells we did not dig. If we're bitter about planting trees we don't get to sit under, we break the chain that lets society move forward.
- booleandilemma 7y ago
  As the saying goes: we all sit in the shade of trees we did not plant Isn’t this more like Sanders taking a tree I planted and giving it to a treeless person and telling them it’s free?
what_is_this 7y ago
Life is unfair. A polio vaccine can't help those who have died

Right after I’ve finished paying mine off, of course. Do I (and everyone else in my position) get money back? Or did we spend all those years cost-cutting for nothing?

hprotagonist 7y ago

"But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’" This is a very bitter pill. But you get to choose how to swallow it.

CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
I’m curious, where is that from?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hprotagonist 7y ago
  'the parable of the workers in the vineyard', one of the weirder and more radical ones. It's a real hard thing to think about, which is probably why it sticks in my mind. It takes every normal rule about sensible economic practices and just stomps on it. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20&version=MSG https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20&vers...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- RandomTisk 7y ago
  Jesus [0]. Now if that 1.6T was the money that Bernie Sander's himself had loaned out to students, I could see the connection here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_Vineyard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_...
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Where else? The Bible. Jesus is trying to point out that it doesn't matter whether you were pious all your life or came to it late. You still get to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
  - hprotagonist 7y ago
    and the Kingdom of Heaven does not have to have anything to do with “what happens to you when you die”. Along with “son of man”, it’s one of the more undefined but well known phrases from the NT. I tend to think it’s got vastly more to do with improving the life we know than it does with anything about “getting to go to heaven if you’re good”
    - RandomTisk 7y ago
      The parable literally starts saying "The Kingdom of heaven is like"... so you can't really escape from that context.
      - hprotagonist 7y ago
        What I mean is that the phrase itself is not well defined. Certainly the parable is meant to tell us something about its character, but not necessarily its nature. Until I was in adulthood I figured it meant “heaven”; that is not at all clear, actually. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingship_and_kingdom_of_God#Gospels https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingship_and_kingdom_of_God#...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kbutler 7y ago
But in Sanders' case 1) it isn't his money (and no, that money doesn't just appear because he wants to spend it), and 2) it sets the expectation of future cancellations, promoting excessive borrowing (moral hazard).
- kbutler 7y ago
  I'd be interested in opposing views, as there must be some, judging by the reaction, but the above seems very apparent to me - I don't see why people would disagree or consider it controversial. Sanders wants to tax high earners to fund the debt forgiveness, and even if that would be sufficient, those funds would not be available for other spending (e.g., medicare for all, or the next "should be free for all" program - "housing for all", etc.)

perfmode 7y ago

you fulfilled your obligation. so, just carry on with your life.

rohit2412 7y ago
So he shouldn't complain about unfair treatment?
CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
Agreed. I’m about $3,500 away from paying off the last of my private loans. And although I’m wondering about the implementation details, I’m still OK with it.
closeparen 7y ago
What obligation? If this passes, student loans were never an obligation, so he can't have been fulfilling one. Instead he made a gift to the treasury.
- mlevental 7y ago
  that's like saying crimes committed before a law was overturned weren't crimes. should all the people jailed for pot (that have served their sentences) get time put back on the clock?
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Yes, and that's what we're doing [0]. [0] https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/tns-san-fran-marijuana-conviction.html https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/tns-s...
    - mlevental 7y ago
      i said time put back on the clock, not formality that pretends like it didn't completely ruin their lives.

wallace_f 7y ago

I think you're hosed. Public consciousness is substituting don't oppress people for being in a position of weakness for let's subsidize weakness. Sanders is selling other people your money. Everything he says is "free" or "cancelled" is really taxpayer funded.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
We've wasted $6 trillion (!!!) dollars on the "War On Terror". Forgiving $1.6T in student debt that shouldn't ever have existed if government policy had been properly implemented (appropriate funding levels of higher education institutions) seems like good policy; those student loan servicing dollars will go back into the economy for goods and services they otherwise wouldn't. Fixing poor public policy in this case isn't subsidizing weakness; it's correcting an economic inefficiency. Somewhere between 60-70% of Americans support government funded higher ed; this is simply enacting it a bit later, retroactively (and based on polling, the support is there). To put this into perspective, it ($1.6T) is less than 3 years of US military spending at current funding levels [1]. Pain is to be expected as the country unwinds poor decisions (education and healthcare in its current forms). Macro economic decisions should not be made emotionally, so squash the desire to argue moral hazard. We've burned up far more dollars as a country on far worse decisions. Disclaimer: Sanders supporter, no college, no student loans [1] https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-military-budget-components-challenges-growth-3306320 https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-military-budget-components-ch...
- forgottenpass 7y ago
  >Fixing poor public policy in this case isn't subsidizing weakness; it's correcting an economic inefficiency. If the government doesn't first fix higher education for people graduating highschool from now into the future, then they're not accomplishing anything. They're just buying votes.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    I expect that to be a part of this initiative. It would not make sense to do otherwise.

jerkstate 7y ago

Same here. I know people who aren’t as well off as I am and need help, but I also know people (more than I can count on one hand) who could pay their student debt off by cutting expenses but aren’t because they are expecting amnesty.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

mbrumlow 7y ago

Or those who skipped going to school because they did the math and figured out it was not worth the debt. Can those people go get free degrees too? I don't know what the solution to correct the past problem is. But I don't like setting the precedent that if the masses fuck up and make poor choices that they should get a pass later. I could 100% get behind student lone forgiveness if any degree issued was paid for by debt being forgiven was made null. This protects those who figured out how to pay them off, and those who did not get degrees because of the cost. Each person would be able to chose their degree over debt -- the same decision many of made in the past. To fix the issue moving forward, guaranteed loans need to be done away with and lenders need to weigh risk and validate loans based off merit and a degree's likelihood produce a job to pay off the loan.

Spivak 7y ago
Isn't the masses fucking up basically the only time passes like this are given out? Don't get me wrong, it feels super shitty as someone who's paid off their loans but I'm not going to argue if people can make a good economic case that we would all be better off if the existing debt was just ersed. A few people taking out large loans for degrees that didn't end up being worth it is an issue of personal responsibility. When an entire generation does it there's something more systemic going on. I mean how many people on HN can say in good conscience that their Uni education was worth the money? I think mine had value in a life experiences sense but what actually landed me my first job was a passion for tinkering with code and systems that started in HS. Outside of the "having an impressive sounding degree" to put on my resume there's no way that the actual education dollar for dollar it was worth it. I had a few professors that were actually mind opening but it was the exception rather than the rule. I realize that University education is super important to a lot of other fields but it seems like a weird argument to make in a forum of people with CS $50k-$200k CS degrees that probably got eclipsed by less than two years of work experience.
- rsj_hn 7y ago
  A handful of people make bad decisions, sure, but when large masses start making bad decisions, then there is a serious systematic problem that needs to be addressed beyond the specific financial burden on the students. Just bailing people out without addressing the systematic problem is the worst possible thing you can do. Here are just a few systematic problems: - We send far too many people to universities and have no trade school infrastructure - Our universities cost double per FTE than what other universities cost (per year). Universities are far too expensive with bloated admin staff. - Our universities last far too long and are not selective enough - Our universities allow students to graduate with unmarketable skills. - Our universities are sitting on huge endowments and possess significant real estate assets yet these are not being tapped for the bailout - students are given incorrect information or are not given accurate information about their future expected earnings and debt burdens. - many students choose poor majors - many students borrow too much, and the Federal government guarantees these debts. I would be willing to listen to a comprehensive reform program. Clearly there is a problem that should be addressed. But just bailing people out to let this system continue? That's a terrible idea.

wwweston 7y ago

I wish college had been free for me too -- that would've drastically changed my relationship with where I could decide to attend. But if we generally improve society in any way, it means that some of the difficulties / obstacles that people have faced so far will be more rarely faced (or maybe eliminated) by people who come after the changes. It isn't fair any more than it was fair that people who learned to program in the 80s/90s had to buy their compilers and software and didn't have Stack Exchange. Or, more dramatically, it isn't fair any more than it's fair for people who suffered or died from infectious illness before antibiotics. As the saying goes: we all sit in the shade of trees we did not plant, we all drink from wells we did not dig. If we're bitter about planting trees we don't get to sit under, we break the chain that lets society move forward.

booleandilemma 7y ago
As the saying goes: we all sit in the shade of trees we did not plant Isn’t this more like Sanders taking a tree I planted and giving it to a treeless person and telling them it’s free?

what_is_this 7y ago

Life is unfair. A polio vaccine can't help those who have died