6 ms·

“I’m sorry we’ve given the impression that we're dropping support for i386 apps”

73 points by cameronbrown 7y ago

mehrdadn 7y ago
A little bit confused... Debian will still fully support x86, right? Why can't the community get any updates they need from Debian repos?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hapless 7y ago
  Because Ubuntu is very hacked-up, and you will likely break your aystem
kgwxd 7y ago
I haven't had the time to dig into this drama over the past few days. I personally don't care about support for a physical 32-bit processor machine, I just want to be able to run old games, EEPROM writer software, and handful of software for patching old instruments, on my 10 year old 64-bit machine. Will that still be doable?
- voltagex_ 7y ago
  Can you send me the EEPROM writer software? I'll be able to tell you what's needed to run it. Most likely, things will keep working as is.
- hnzix 7y ago
  The implication is that if the 32bit libraries are frozen in time forever, emulators, wine[0] and some game platforms will soon become incompatible with Ubuntu. If that's the case, it's dishonest to say "oh we're not killing 32bit" when in fact they're boiling the frog. This has pissed off Valve enough to make vaguely threatening statements about stepping away from Ubuntu. [0] https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/i386-architecture-will-be-dropped-starting-with-eoan-ubuntu-19-10/11263/121 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/i386-architecture-will-be-dro...
  - misterdoubt 7y ago
    No longer vague. They're ending support for Ubuntu. https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/22/steam-will-stop-supporting-ubuntu-linux/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/22/steam-will-stop-supporti...
    - everdrive 7y ago
      And Debian is not stepping away from 32-bit? So we can all just move to Debian or a derivative if we liked Ubuntu?
- blihp 7y ago
  For a while at least... the drama is exactly the use case you're describing: supporting old software/peripherals (esp. 32-bit apps for Wine/Steam.) If Ubuntu freezes 32-bit libraries at the current versions, it's likely that they will start to bit-rot as the 64-bit side of things move forward. This would likely manifest in things starting to break over time since Wine/Steam/whatever aren't likely to maintain/backport fixes to work around issues going forward for out of date packages.
dehrmann 7y ago
It's not quite clear from this: are they dropping i386 or something more like i686? I recently got modern Debian to start up on my first computer, a PII 350. It only worked because that was the first modern x86 architecture that distros support easily. Pretty much everything older's been dropped.
- sp332 7y ago
  It's i686.
- matthewbauer 7y ago
  I think a few distros still support all the way back to i486. Debian and Ubuntu only support i686 though. Too bad too because i586 CPUs were on the market as recently as 2015 (Intel Quark). https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Debian-686-For-i386-CPUs https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Debian-6...
  - 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
    I can't immediately find a definitive listing, but I think Vortex86 [1] chips (inheritor of the Rise/SiS x86 core) are still sold that have 586-level ISA compatibility. [1] http://www.vortex86.com/ http://www.vortex86.com/
  - duskwuff 7y ago
    Intel Quark has some catastrophic errata which make it unable to run any stock Linux distribution. In particular, there's an issue with its implementation of the LOCK instruction prefix which can cause unpredictable crashes -- and the CPU has no microcode update facility, so there's no way to patch it.
- soneil 7y ago
  They label the x86 architecture i386 - even though it's not actually compatible with 386 processors anymore. So when they're talking about dropping i386 - they're talking about dropping 32bit, not your 25yo sx16.
matthewbauer 7y ago
It sounds like they expect everyone to use Snap for 32-bit binaries. This might make sense for very popular apps like Steam, but is bound to break for legacy binaries that won't have any Snaps available. What's been missing here is the rationale for removing these libraries, though. Glibc, and most other base libraries still support 32-bit intel without any problems. The cost of Ubuntu providing them seems very low here. Since they even use APT still, I suspect they could even reuse the Debian repos for i386!
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  The cost of Ubuntu providing them seems very low here. If that's so, then they'll get tons of volunteers willing to put in the "very low" effort, no? More seriously, I don't think that it's going to happen, and I think you'll agree that it's unlikely. This suggests that the cost is not so low after all.
  - eikenberry 7y ago
    They already have all the volunteers they need in the form of Debian developers and packagers. Ubuntu is 99% Debian with just some minor changes on top. The only real costs to them are for building and distributing.
  - despera 7y ago
    On a gentoo system being able to easily see the backbones of multi-lib support i can say that it's mostly a straight forward process, sometimes exotic makefiles might need a little push, nothing much more beyond that. Also there are volunteers only for non profit organizations like debian, arch, gentoo etc. For everyone else we are just customers and we have no obligation to help and every right to criticize.
- mook 7y ago
  Stupid question: if they don't ship an i386 version, how would the snaps be created? Since there would no longer be a root disk it could be based on… I'm probably missing something obvious?
meruru 7y ago
Wouldn't it make sense to drop 32-bit on intermediate releases but keep it on LTS releases? It sounds like the perfect compromise to me, but I'm not sure what exactly it takes to support 32-bit. Is it a matter of human or computing resources that's driving this?
- yskchu 7y ago
  It's still supported on 18.04 LTS etc, they just don't want to support it in 20.04 LTS, so this is a preparation move. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-Drops-32-bit-x86 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-D...
  - meruru 7y ago
    I mean why not support it only on 20.04, 22.04 and so on.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - desas 7y ago
      Because that code will then be untested for the releases between LTS and hence more fragile and expensive to support within it.
      - meruru 7y ago
        The code will be tested in its 64-bit form. Is 6 months not enough to check for 32-bit specific bugs? How often are there 32-bit bugs anyway?
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Maybe. That'd still put the distribution in the strange position of shipping old 32-bit versions of libraries alongside newer 64-bit ones. I'd be concerned that using two different versions "side by side" could cause problems.
Cacti 7y ago
> But there is every intention to ensure that there is a clear story for how i386 applications (including games) can be run on versions of Ubuntu later than 19.10. ‘a clear story’ doesn’t sound to me like actual support, it sounds more like words chosen to obfuscate the fact that they won’t be providing support, and will instead offload support to some third party, with no actual guarantees.
- dwaite 7y ago
  What would actual guarantees mean for consumers, who aren't paying for or receiving commercial support? If someone is paying for commercial support and this drop affects them, they should probably be calling their rep about now.
gbraad 7y ago
The message and comments actually raise more questions. While they might not completely remove the i386 libraries, they will be marked as "legacy" and will not see any updates (frozen 18.04 versions). But what about security fixes? The thread is an interesting read, but also feels like this was made as a uninformed decision; were the consequences realized? And if they were, why is this not properly communicated? Their userbase and 'partners' need to know and understand what this means to them. Reading the response from Valve, this clearly isn't the case.
Grue3 7y ago
They shouldn't be sorry. Canonical is not Microsoft, it can't afford to support legacy software forever. Let Valve support i386 apps for Linux, they definitely have money and resources for it.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Then they can't pretend to care about desktop users anymore - I just think it'll damage them and their brand in the long term.
de_watcher 7y ago
Looks like the Wine x32 emulation is based on the x32 Ubuntu distribution existing. So now even if Canonical agrees to support just a subset of the x32 libraries then they'll be testing it not like a distribution but like a base for Wine (because it won't be used as a whole dist). I understand that the Wine project doesn't want to take on that work. They aren't comfortable with the fact that x32 will become like one of those old gaming consoles we need emulators for, and everything will eventually go into Wine. Either way the testing will be reduced.

73 points by cameronbrown 7y ago

A little bit confused... Debian will still fully support x86, right? Why can't the community get any updates they need from Debian repos?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hapless 7y ago
Because Ubuntu is very hacked-up, and you will likely break your aystem

kgwxd 7y ago

I haven't had the time to dig into this drama over the past few days. I personally don't care about support for a physical 32-bit processor machine, I just want to be able to run old games, EEPROM writer software, and handful of software for patching old instruments, on my 10 year old 64-bit machine. Will that still be doable?

voltagex_ 7y ago
Can you send me the EEPROM writer software? I'll be able to tell you what's needed to run it. Most likely, things will keep working as is.
hnzix 7y ago
The implication is that if the 32bit libraries are frozen in time forever, emulators, wine[0] and some game platforms will soon become incompatible with Ubuntu. If that's the case, it's dishonest to say "oh we're not killing 32bit" when in fact they're boiling the frog. This has pissed off Valve enough to make vaguely threatening statements about stepping away from Ubuntu. [0] https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/i386-architecture-will-be-dropped-starting-with-eoan-ubuntu-19-10/11263/121 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/i386-architecture-will-be-dro...
- misterdoubt 7y ago
  No longer vague. They're ending support for Ubuntu. https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/22/steam-will-stop-supporting-ubuntu-linux/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/22/steam-will-stop-supporti...
  - everdrive 7y ago
    And Debian is not stepping away from 32-bit? So we can all just move to Debian or a derivative if we liked Ubuntu?
blihp 7y ago
For a while at least... the drama is exactly the use case you're describing: supporting old software/peripherals (esp. 32-bit apps for Wine/Steam.) If Ubuntu freezes 32-bit libraries at the current versions, it's likely that they will start to bit-rot as the 64-bit side of things move forward. This would likely manifest in things starting to break over time since Wine/Steam/whatever aren't likely to maintain/backport fixes to work around issues going forward for out of date packages.

dehrmann 7y ago

It's not quite clear from this: are they dropping i386 or something more like i686? I recently got modern Debian to start up on my first computer, a PII 350. It only worked because that was the first modern x86 architecture that distros support easily. Pretty much everything older's been dropped.

sp332 7y ago
It's i686.
matthewbauer 7y ago
I think a few distros still support all the way back to i486. Debian and Ubuntu only support i686 though. Too bad too because i586 CPUs were on the market as recently as 2015 (Intel Quark). https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Debian-686-For-i386-CPUs https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Debian-6...
- 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
  I can't immediately find a definitive listing, but I think Vortex86 [1] chips (inheritor of the Rise/SiS x86 core) are still sold that have 586-level ISA compatibility. [1] http://www.vortex86.com/ http://www.vortex86.com/
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Intel Quark has some catastrophic errata which make it unable to run any stock Linux distribution. In particular, there's an issue with its implementation of the LOCK instruction prefix which can cause unpredictable crashes -- and the CPU has no microcode update facility, so there's no way to patch it.
soneil 7y ago
They label the x86 architecture i386 - even though it's not actually compatible with 386 processors anymore. So when they're talking about dropping i386 - they're talking about dropping 32bit, not your 25yo sx16.

matthewbauer 7y ago

It sounds like they expect everyone to use Snap for 32-bit binaries. This might make sense for very popular apps like Steam, but is bound to break for legacy binaries that won't have any Snaps available. What's been missing here is the rationale for removing these libraries, though. Glibc, and most other base libraries still support 32-bit intel without any problems. The cost of Ubuntu providing them seems very low here. Since they even use APT still, I suspect they could even reuse the Debian repos for i386!

xyzzyz 7y ago
The cost of Ubuntu providing them seems very low here. If that's so, then they'll get tons of volunteers willing to put in the "very low" effort, no? More seriously, I don't think that it's going to happen, and I think you'll agree that it's unlikely. This suggests that the cost is not so low after all.
- eikenberry 7y ago
  They already have all the volunteers they need in the form of Debian developers and packagers. Ubuntu is 99% Debian with just some minor changes on top. The only real costs to them are for building and distributing.
- despera 7y ago
  On a gentoo system being able to easily see the backbones of multi-lib support i can say that it's mostly a straight forward process, sometimes exotic makefiles might need a little push, nothing much more beyond that. Also there are volunteers only for non profit organizations like debian, arch, gentoo etc. For everyone else we are just customers and we have no obligation to help and every right to criticize.
mook 7y ago
Stupid question: if they don't ship an i386 version, how would the snaps be created? Since there would no longer be a root disk it could be based on… I'm probably missing something obvious?

meruru 7y ago

Wouldn't it make sense to drop 32-bit on intermediate releases but keep it on LTS releases? It sounds like the perfect compromise to me, but I'm not sure what exactly it takes to support 32-bit. Is it a matter of human or computing resources that's driving this?

yskchu 7y ago
It's still supported on 18.04 LTS etc, they just don't want to support it in 20.04 LTS, so this is a preparation move. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-Drops-32-bit-x86 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-D...
- meruru 7y ago
  I mean why not support it only on 20.04, 22.04 and so on.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - desas 7y ago
    Because that code will then be untested for the releases between LTS and hence more fragile and expensive to support within it.
    - meruru 7y ago
      The code will be tested in its 64-bit form. Is 6 months not enough to check for 32-bit specific bugs? How often are there 32-bit bugs anyway?
duskwuff 7y ago
Maybe. That'd still put the distribution in the strange position of shipping old 32-bit versions of libraries alongside newer 64-bit ones. I'd be concerned that using two different versions "side by side" could cause problems.

Cacti 7y ago

> But there is every intention to ensure that there is a clear story for how i386 applications (including games) can be run on versions of Ubuntu later than 19.10. ‘a clear story’ doesn’t sound to me like actual support, it sounds more like words chosen to obfuscate the fact that they won’t be providing support, and will instead offload support to some third party, with no actual guarantees.

dwaite 7y ago
What would actual guarantees mean for consumers, who aren't paying for or receiving commercial support? If someone is paying for commercial support and this drop affects them, they should probably be calling their rep about now.

gbraad 7y ago

The message and comments actually raise more questions. While they might not completely remove the i386 libraries, they will be marked as "legacy" and will not see any updates (frozen 18.04 versions). But what about security fixes? The thread is an interesting read, but also feels like this was made as a uninformed decision; were the consequences realized? And if they were, why is this not properly communicated? Their userbase and 'partners' need to know and understand what this means to them. Reading the response from Valve, this clearly isn't the case.

Grue3 7y ago

They shouldn't be sorry. Canonical is not Microsoft, it can't afford to support legacy software forever. Let Valve support i386 apps for Linux, they definitely have money and resources for it.

cameronbrown 7y ago
Then they can't pretend to care about desktop users anymore - I just think it'll damage them and their brand in the long term.

de_watcher 7y ago

Looks like the Wine x32 emulation is based on the x32 Ubuntu distribution existing. So now even if Canonical agrees to support just a subset of the x32 libraries then they'll be testing it not like a distribution but like a base for Wine (because it won't be used as a whole dist). I understand that the Wine project doesn't want to take on that work. They aren't comfortable with the fact that x32 will become like one of those old gaming consoles we need emulators for, and everything will eventually go into Wine. Either way the testing will be reduced.