6 ms·

V Is for Vaporware

63 points by xena 7y ago

st3fan 7y ago
It would be nice if people were supportive of this effort instead of just pissing on it. Of course it is incomplete at 0.0.12. Was it over hyped? Sure. Good for him to have time for some marketing of his work next to _actually writing a working compiler with a good start for a standard library_ This thing is real and here to stay. How about this: instead of writing about frauds and vapourware, contribute to the project. File an issue, fix a bug, work with the author. We should applaud and encourage these efforts.
- amedvednikov 7y ago
  Thanks :) It's 0.0.12, the first public release. What's with all this "vaporware"? The compiler can already compile itself in 0.3 seconds and is written 100% in V: https://github.com/vlang/v#installing-v-from-source https://github.com/vlang/v#installing-v-from-source It allows building easy cross platform graphical apps: https://github.com/vlang/v/tree/master/examples/tetris https://github.com/vlang/v/tree/master/examples/tetris It has easy cross compilation and can even compile itself for another platform: https://twitter.com/v_language/status/1137537130887077890 https://twitter.com/v_language/status/1137537130887077890 It allows to build small performant GUI apps like Volt: https://volt-app.com/ https://volt-app.com/ (Volt 1.0 RC 1 for macOS has been used by thousands of happy users for several months.) It powers a simple forum: https://blog.vlang.io/forum https://blog.vlang.io/forum And the entire forum is one 65 KB binary. It can translate and build DOOM: https://github.com/vlang/doom https://github.com/vlang/doom It has very extensive and simple to read documentation that covers pretty much the entire language: https://vlang.io/docs https://vlang.io/docs I think it's pretty good for 0.0.12. Come back when it's v1.0 by the end of this year.
  - st3fan 7y ago
    It is fantastic work. Please don’t be discouraged and keep hacking on it. I bet you could also build an active community of contributors around it.
  - detaro 7y ago
    If you have all these great examples, why aren't they on the marketing page instead, and future plans clearly on a roadmap or whatever? They're pretty cool achievements! And something I can now go look at is way more interesting than something thats "coming soon". Good luck with your project, I hope this drama doesn't overshadow it too much long-term (but you're probably better off if you work on your messaging to avoid this topic getting back up over and over)
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - everyday847 7y ago
    When you say "it can translate and build DOOM" and suggest that repo is evidence of that fact -- why does that repo contain a single .v source file, p_enemy.v, which contains fewer than 5k loc? According to your build process, what you actually do is: 1. build ALL OF CHOCOLATE DOOM 2. replace the ONE OBJECT FILE that you translated 3. relink so, objectively, it cannot "translate and build DOOM" and you shouldn't claim that it can!
adamnemecek 7y ago
Why does the internet care so much? My recollection of the events is that the guy put up a website for an in progress language. Someone else posted it on HN and people started shitting their pants. The author owes you nothing.
- amedvednikov 7y ago
  Your recollection is correct. People don't like that it doesn't yet do everything perfect at 0.0.12.
readme 7y ago
Nice hit piece. All of the criticisms could have been patches. Most of the criticisms are exaggerated. Looks like it took 2s to build on the macbook instead of 1. The 'zero dependency' binary links to libc (as if most programmers wouldn't expect this.)
- monkpit 7y ago
  I agree with the sentiment of your post, but I would like to point out that it took 2 seconds for it to throw an error that the file had more than 50k statements. It did not build at all. It’s not really even a valid test.
- andrewchambers 7y ago
  So you think a C++ translator and hot code reloader can be sent as a patch so easily? What?
pdimitar 7y ago
I don't understand these kinds of articles at all, maybe somebody can help me. So the author has overhyped its creation. So what? Humans get attached to their creations and can't view them objectively. That's a documented psychological fact -- just look at your typical parent, their kids can do no wrong in their eyes. I tried following V's story lately on HN and truthfully, I got very surprised by the ton of hate and insane nitpicking. I get it, things are promised and are not yet delivered. It's one guy. And he's creating a C language competitor. C has what, 40+ years of backing? I dare you to do better than him. I personally don't have the balls to even attempt such a thing. But at least I am not bashing the guy. I actually applaud him for not being a typical introverted engineer and that he gets out of his way to address criticism here on HN -- not always constructively, granted, but I'm prety sure most of you cannot take that much flak and not snap. And he tries to make a semi-okay website. V is not harmful to anyone in any way even if half the claims on its page are not true [yet]. Getting in $500 - $2000 of donations in a month for development of something like this is peanuts and does no harm to anybody, anywhere. Are you aware there are dozens of Twitch "streamers" shaking cleavage on a webcam while failing at a videogame, raking in thousands of hard-earned $$$, and that this is happening every day for years now? Why don't you go piss at that?
- detaro 7y ago
  > So the author has overhyped its creation. So what? Either: "Someone got excited, took a closer look and wrote a blog post", or "someone got mildly annoyed by the overhyping, tried it out and wrote a blog post about it". It seems to be fairly factual criticism to me, comparing the marketing claims to actual experience. And especially because getting a language going is such a big project I don't get why you'd state things that aren't there yet - everyone would expect an early version to not have all those things if there weren't claims to the opposite, so being honest about the state of things doesn't really hurt you. To the contrary, it avoids people being disappointed when they want to try something that's claimed as a feature and it isn't there. And some probably consider it unfair towards projects that are less bold in their claims. I'm not sure what the "harmless" comments are about - the article doesn't mention anything about that (or the income) at all?
  - 7y ago
benatkin 7y ago
The invention of programming languages is well trodden territory. The original author of this site has written about it: http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html It's hard to get excited about V if you've studied a lot of programming languages and watched some new ones come into use. I also recommend the Artima articles with the designer of C#: https://www.artima.com/intv/anders.html https://www.artima.com/intv/anders.html
fastball 7y ago
Not sure the author understands what "Work in Progress" means. A good portion of the article seems to be taking claims marked (WIP) and saying "hah! gotcha! this doesn't work yet!" Almost like, I dunno, a work in progress.
- Volt 7y ago
  They were only marked as WIP when people noticed they were missing.
  - fastball 7y ago
    The article literally has "[wip]" quoted throughout.
    - kingkong2022 7y ago
      V was originally released 2-3 days ago with absolutely no WIP written on the website but the readme in the downloaded compiler told a different story, that half the things mentioned in the website do not work. After being called out as a liar and cheat on HN, first he became aggressively defensive saying that he did not lie, and everything does work. But later on, he changed the website and marked everything WIP but still did not accept on HN that things do not work as advertised. Hence the vaporware.
nunez 7y ago
This was a fun read, but hating on a language that doesn't even have a minor version yet feels unfair!
laylomo2 7y ago
This article is toxic. So what if he overpromised and underdelivered? I would rather people support his cause and actually build something that delivers on the hype rather than sit on their high throne and shit on ambitious projects.

63 points by xena 7y ago

It would be nice if people were supportive of this effort instead of just pissing on it. Of course it is incomplete at 0.0.12. Was it over hyped? Sure. Good for him to have time for some marketing of his work next to _actually writing a working compiler with a good start for a standard library_ This thing is real and here to stay. How about this: instead of writing about frauds and vapourware, contribute to the project. File an issue, fix a bug, work with the author. We should applaud and encourage these efforts.

amedvednikov 7y ago
Thanks :) It's 0.0.12, the first public release. What's with all this "vaporware"? The compiler can already compile itself in 0.3 seconds and is written 100% in V: https://github.com/vlang/v#installing-v-from-source https://github.com/vlang/v#installing-v-from-source It allows building easy cross platform graphical apps: https://github.com/vlang/v/tree/master/examples/tetris https://github.com/vlang/v/tree/master/examples/tetris It has easy cross compilation and can even compile itself for another platform: https://twitter.com/v_language/status/1137537130887077890 https://twitter.com/v_language/status/1137537130887077890 It allows to build small performant GUI apps like Volt: https://volt-app.com/ https://volt-app.com/ (Volt 1.0 RC 1 for macOS has been used by thousands of happy users for several months.) It powers a simple forum: https://blog.vlang.io/forum https://blog.vlang.io/forum And the entire forum is one 65 KB binary. It can translate and build DOOM: https://github.com/vlang/doom https://github.com/vlang/doom It has very extensive and simple to read documentation that covers pretty much the entire language: https://vlang.io/docs https://vlang.io/docs I think it's pretty good for 0.0.12. Come back when it's v1.0 by the end of this year.
- st3fan 7y ago
  It is fantastic work. Please don’t be discouraged and keep hacking on it. I bet you could also build an active community of contributors around it.
- detaro 7y ago
  If you have all these great examples, why aren't they on the marketing page instead, and future plans clearly on a roadmap or whatever? They're pretty cool achievements! And something I can now go look at is way more interesting than something thats "coming soon". Good luck with your project, I hope this drama doesn't overshadow it too much long-term (but you're probably better off if you work on your messaging to avoid this topic getting back up over and over)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- everyday847 7y ago
  When you say "it can translate and build DOOM" and suggest that repo is evidence of that fact -- why does that repo contain a single .v source file, p_enemy.v, which contains fewer than 5k loc? According to your build process, what you actually do is: 1. build ALL OF CHOCOLATE DOOM 2. replace the ONE OBJECT FILE that you translated 3. relink so, objectively, it cannot "translate and build DOOM" and you shouldn't claim that it can!

adamnemecek 7y ago

Why does the internet care so much? My recollection of the events is that the guy put up a website for an in progress language. Someone else posted it on HN and people started shitting their pants. The author owes you nothing.

amedvednikov 7y ago
Your recollection is correct. People don't like that it doesn't yet do everything perfect at 0.0.12.

readme 7y ago

Nice hit piece. All of the criticisms could have been patches. Most of the criticisms are exaggerated. Looks like it took 2s to build on the macbook instead of 1. The 'zero dependency' binary links to libc (as if most programmers wouldn't expect this.)

monkpit 7y ago
I agree with the sentiment of your post, but I would like to point out that it took 2 seconds for it to throw an error that the file had more than 50k statements. It did not build at all. It’s not really even a valid test.
andrewchambers 7y ago
So you think a C++ translator and hot code reloader can be sent as a patch so easily? What?

pdimitar 7y ago

I don't understand these kinds of articles at all, maybe somebody can help me. So the author has overhyped its creation. So what? Humans get attached to their creations and can't view them objectively. That's a documented psychological fact -- just look at your typical parent, their kids can do no wrong in their eyes. I tried following V's story lately on HN and truthfully, I got very surprised by the ton of hate and insane nitpicking. I get it, things are promised and are not yet delivered. It's one guy. And he's creating a C language competitor. C has what, 40+ years of backing? I dare you to do better than him. I personally don't have the balls to even attempt such a thing. But at least I am not bashing the guy. I actually applaud him for not being a typical introverted engineer and that he gets out of his way to address criticism here on HN -- not always constructively, granted, but I'm prety sure most of you cannot take that much flak and not snap. And he tries to make a semi-okay website. V is not harmful to anyone in any way even if half the claims on its page are not true [yet]. Getting in $500 - $2000 of donations in a month for development of something like this is peanuts and does no harm to anybody, anywhere. Are you aware there are dozens of Twitch "streamers" shaking cleavage on a webcam while failing at a videogame, raking in thousands of hard-earned $$$, and that this is happening every day for years now? Why don't you go piss at that?

detaro 7y ago
> So the author has overhyped its creation. So what? Either: "Someone got excited, took a closer look and wrote a blog post", or "someone got mildly annoyed by the overhyping, tried it out and wrote a blog post about it". It seems to be fairly factual criticism to me, comparing the marketing claims to actual experience. And especially because getting a language going is such a big project I don't get why you'd state things that aren't there yet - everyone would expect an early version to not have all those things if there weren't claims to the opposite, so being honest about the state of things doesn't really hurt you. To the contrary, it avoids people being disappointed when they want to try something that's claimed as a feature and it isn't there. And some probably consider it unfair towards projects that are less bold in their claims. I'm not sure what the "harmless" comments are about - the article doesn't mention anything about that (or the income) at all?
- 7y ago

benatkin 7y ago

The invention of programming languages is well trodden territory. The original author of this site has written about it: http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html It's hard to get excited about V if you've studied a lot of programming languages and watched some new ones come into use. I also recommend the Artima articles with the designer of C#: https://www.artima.com/intv/anders.html https://www.artima.com/intv/anders.html

fastball 7y ago

Not sure the author understands what "Work in Progress" means. A good portion of the article seems to be taking claims marked (WIP) and saying "hah! gotcha! this doesn't work yet!" Almost like, I dunno, a work in progress.

Volt 7y ago
They were only marked as WIP when people noticed they were missing.
- fastball 7y ago
  The article literally has "[wip]" quoted throughout.
  - kingkong2022 7y ago
    V was originally released 2-3 days ago with absolutely no WIP written on the website but the readme in the downloaded compiler told a different story, that half the things mentioned in the website do not work. After being called out as a liar and cheat on HN, first he became aggressively defensive saying that he did not lie, and everything does work. But later on, he changed the website and marked everything WIP but still did not accept on HN that things do not work as advertised. Hence the vaporware.

nunez 7y ago

This was a fun read, but hating on a language that doesn't even have a minor version yet feels unfair!

laylomo2 7y ago

This article is toxic. So what if he overpromised and underdelivered? I would rather people support his cause and actually build something that delivers on the hype rather than sit on their high throne and shit on ambitious projects.