5 ms·

> At some point, pulling energy out of thin air will end up cheaper than doing expensive drilling operations. A lot of people seem to believe that abundant cle

by valw 7y ago

> At some point, pulling energy out of thin air will end up cheaper than doing expensive drilling operations. A lot of people seem to believe that abundant clean energy is a sufficient solution for our environmental problems. A huge part of GHG emissions is due to deforesting and cattle, which has little to do with energy consumption. History also seems to show that giving humanity abundant energy will only lead to it wrecking itself in some other way. Sustainability is simply not compatible with our crazy paradigm of unlimited growth and consumption.

bin0 7y ago
Cattle likely won't change. I'm going to keep eating meat. And deforestation may not change due to exploding population. However, that doesn't mean we can't capture carbon. I've seen numerous promising business ideas to capture carbon and convert it into useful materials; I think it's more feasible to do that than to force veganism on every one.
- valw 7y ago
  > I've seen numerous promising business ideas to capture carbon and convert it into useful materials; I think it's more feasible to do that than to force veganism on every one. Yeah, we've all seen them - they make for fantastic headlines. None of them is as viable as protecting forests / planting trees by a long shot. They systematically fail to mention that the energy consumption is super high or that they're not scalable in another way - at least not in time. > Cattle likely won't change. I'm going to keep eating meat [...] more feasible to do that than to force veganism on every one. You don't need everyone to go vegan - we only need people to eat a lot less meat and diaries, and / or choose meat with a smaller footprint (e.g chicken). It's simply not reasonable to use 40% of arable lands to feed cattle given the environmental and food challenges of the 21st century. If you're not willing to make the relatively small lifestyle change that is changing your diet, then let me tell you with blunt honesty: you're an instance of the most severe cause of climate change - privileged people not willing to give up on some of their comfort. This attitude is also collectively irrational, because climate change if not prevented will force us to much more radical lifestyle changes. I do hope you will reconsider.
  - jodrellblank 7y ago
    60% of America is overweight or obese, and America throws out enough food to feed .. a lot of people, every day. Shame me for eating meat when you stop them from overeating food full stop - and all the farm machinery and transport and packaging involved in that. I don't have children, I don't drive them to school in a SUV or to a holiday in DisneyWorld, I have never launched a SpaceX rocket, or lived on my own in a full size house. I have never been on a cruise. I don't live or work in an air-conditioned place. To put it bluntly, f' off about calling people "the most severe cause of climate change" for eating a beef sandwich without considering anything else. It's unhelpful, provocative, and completely incorrect. I didn't attend an international destination wedding this year, which a lot of my family did. How many bacon sandwiches does that earn me compared to my family? If your answer is none because climate change is a global catastrophe and everyone has to pitch in, then what incentive does that give anyone? If any carbon slack of my reduced comfort is just getting eaten up by other people's indifference, aren't I better off being indifferent as well?
    - valw 7y ago
      > f' off about calling people "the most severe cause of climate change" for eating a beef sandwich without considering anything else. It's unhelpful, provocative, and completely incorrect. That's an entire mischaracterization of my argument, which was about willingness to change one's lifestyle in general, not specifically about eating a beef sandwich.
      - jodrellblank 7y ago
        As in recent headline, Carnival Cruise Lines emit more pollution than all the cars in Europe[1]. Ten times more. And I'm "with blunt honesty: an instance of the most severe cause of climate change"? No. Just so much no. [1] https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/news-opinion/carnival-cruise-ships-generate-10-times-more-pollution-than-all-of-europes-cars https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/news-opinion/carnival...
    - dantondwa 7y ago
      Yeah, I agree with what you are saying. This approach has put all the responsibility on the individual and has comfortably concealed the fact that a problem of this scale must be approached from above and in a systemic way. Yes, individuals can make a difference, in mass. So can laws that force them to act in a certain way and laws which actually touch the interests of the big polluters. Making the powerless majority feel guilty about their insignificant choices is not the solution, and it is just a way to not face the responsability of the big and influential culprits.
- amluto 7y ago
  There are reasonably credible proposals for minor dietary changes for the cows that will drastically reduce methane emissions. A tax on cattle methane emissions could easily make this happen.
- e98cuenc 7y ago
  There was an article about a small change in cattle diet that vastly reduced it's methane emissions. Something related to an Australian algae. Here, I found it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/environment/cows-seaweed-methane-burps-cut-greenhouse-gas-emissions-climate-change-research-a8368911.html%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/environme...
stephenr 7y ago
> A huge part of GHG emissions is due to deforesting and cattle Deforestation is clearly an issue, but I seem to recall reading about a diet with some/more/lots of seaweed essentially solved the methane issue of cattle? If the deforestation is to have space for cows the answer is obvious: cow/fish hybrids. Or cows with scuba masks? No need to collect the seaweed, no need to destroy the forest. You’ll need bigger fishing nets though.
- hannob 7y ago
  > Deforestation is clearly an issue, but I seem to recall reading about a diet with some/more/lots of seaweed essentially solved the methane issue of cattle? Don't get your hopes up. This story gets thrown around a lot, but it's based on a mini study with twelve cows. Whether this will work at scale or permanently is pretty much an open question.
- punchclockhero 7y ago
  Had the same shower thought as you. If selective breeding can make a chihuahua out of the wolf, why not make aquatic cattle out of the whale? Plenty of pastures in the ocean.
  - stephenr 7y ago
    Bonus: automatic surf and turf.

by valw 7y ago

bin0 7y ago

Cattle likely won't change. I'm going to keep eating meat. And deforestation may not change due to exploding population. However, that doesn't mean we can't capture carbon. I've seen numerous promising business ideas to capture carbon and convert it into useful materials; I think it's more feasible to do that than to force veganism on every one.

valw 7y ago
> I've seen numerous promising business ideas to capture carbon and convert it into useful materials; I think it's more feasible to do that than to force veganism on every one. Yeah, we've all seen them - they make for fantastic headlines. None of them is as viable as protecting forests / planting trees by a long shot. They systematically fail to mention that the energy consumption is super high or that they're not scalable in another way - at least not in time. > Cattle likely won't change. I'm going to keep eating meat [...] more feasible to do that than to force veganism on every one. You don't need everyone to go vegan - we only need people to eat a lot less meat and diaries, and / or choose meat with a smaller footprint (e.g chicken). It's simply not reasonable to use 40% of arable lands to feed cattle given the environmental and food challenges of the 21st century. If you're not willing to make the relatively small lifestyle change that is changing your diet, then let me tell you with blunt honesty: you're an instance of the most severe cause of climate change - privileged people not willing to give up on some of their comfort. This attitude is also collectively irrational, because climate change if not prevented will force us to much more radical lifestyle changes. I do hope you will reconsider.
- jodrellblank 7y ago
  60% of America is overweight or obese, and America throws out enough food to feed .. a lot of people, every day. Shame me for eating meat when you stop them from overeating food full stop - and all the farm machinery and transport and packaging involved in that. I don't have children, I don't drive them to school in a SUV or to a holiday in DisneyWorld, I have never launched a SpaceX rocket, or lived on my own in a full size house. I have never been on a cruise. I don't live or work in an air-conditioned place. To put it bluntly, f' off about calling people "the most severe cause of climate change" for eating a beef sandwich without considering anything else. It's unhelpful, provocative, and completely incorrect. I didn't attend an international destination wedding this year, which a lot of my family did. How many bacon sandwiches does that earn me compared to my family? If your answer is none because climate change is a global catastrophe and everyone has to pitch in, then what incentive does that give anyone? If any carbon slack of my reduced comfort is just getting eaten up by other people's indifference, aren't I better off being indifferent as well?
  - valw 7y ago
    > f' off about calling people "the most severe cause of climate change" for eating a beef sandwich without considering anything else. It's unhelpful, provocative, and completely incorrect. That's an entire mischaracterization of my argument, which was about willingness to change one's lifestyle in general, not specifically about eating a beef sandwich.
    - jodrellblank 7y ago
      As in recent headline, Carnival Cruise Lines emit more pollution than all the cars in Europe[1]. Ten times more. And I'm "with blunt honesty: an instance of the most severe cause of climate change"? No. Just so much no. [1] https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/news-opinion/carnival-cruise-ships-generate-10-times-more-pollution-than-all-of-europes-cars https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/news-opinion/carnival...
  - dantondwa 7y ago
    Yeah, I agree with what you are saying. This approach has put all the responsibility on the individual and has comfortably concealed the fact that a problem of this scale must be approached from above and in a systemic way. Yes, individuals can make a difference, in mass. So can laws that force them to act in a certain way and laws which actually touch the interests of the big polluters. Making the powerless majority feel guilty about their insignificant choices is not the solution, and it is just a way to not face the responsability of the big and influential culprits.
amluto 7y ago
There are reasonably credible proposals for minor dietary changes for the cows that will drastically reduce methane emissions. A tax on cattle methane emissions could easily make this happen.
e98cuenc 7y ago
There was an article about a small change in cattle diet that vastly reduced it's methane emissions. Something related to an Australian algae. Here, I found it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/environment/cows-seaweed-methane-burps-cut-greenhouse-gas-emissions-climate-change-research-a8368911.html%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/environme...

stephenr 7y ago

> A huge part of GHG emissions is due to deforesting and cattle Deforestation is clearly an issue, but I seem to recall reading about a diet with some/more/lots of seaweed essentially solved the methane issue of cattle? If the deforestation is to have space for cows the answer is obvious: cow/fish hybrids. Or cows with scuba masks? No need to collect the seaweed, no need to destroy the forest. You’ll need bigger fishing nets though.

hannob 7y ago
> Deforestation is clearly an issue, but I seem to recall reading about a diet with some/more/lots of seaweed essentially solved the methane issue of cattle? Don't get your hopes up. This story gets thrown around a lot, but it's based on a mini study with twelve cows. Whether this will work at scale or permanently is pretty much an open question.
punchclockhero 7y ago
Had the same shower thought as you. If selective breeding can make a chihuahua out of the wolf, why not make aquatic cattle out of the whale? Plenty of pastures in the ocean.
- stephenr 7y ago
  Bonus: automatic surf and turf.