8 ms·

GNU APL 1.8

121 points by lelf 7y ago

delish 7y ago
I have a high opinion of GNU APL though I've never used it, from the discussion of GNU APL 1.7's release: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13904688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13904688
6thaccount2 7y ago
I'd like to play with this as it is a free APL that I could use for work without paying a license (like Dyalog APL requires). J is another free array language, but it doesn't use the APL characters that I enjoy. I've had a little trouble in the past getting it to install (this was version 1.7) on Ubuntu. Granted I've never been an expert at installing from source, but a more in-depth installation guide or YouTube tutorial would help some. Thanks for doing this btw! I hope to eventually get to check this out!
- jacoblambda 7y ago
  BTW the Dyalog license is free for a personal/non-commercial license. The process for getting it is a little weird but the dyalog variant is a pretty nice piece of kit.
  - 6thaccount2 7y ago
    Oh I agree Dyalog is super nice and that it is free for personal/hobby use, but using it at work costs ~1k/year. I'm always a bit leery working with such systems when most software is now free. If your company already uses it, that's great and if they already have a site license it is essentially zero cost to use from your point. If you're that weird guy asking to use the heiroglyphics language...it can be a tough sell to management and IT.
    - kgwgk 7y ago
      > most software is now free Is it?
      - 6thaccount2 7y ago
        Language wise yes. Sorry if I wasn't clear. C# => Free; Java => Free; Common Lisp => SBCL is Free; Python => Free; Ruby => Free; C => Free; C++ => Free; Rust => Free; Haskell => Free; JavaScript => Free; Smalltalk => Pharo is Free; Perl => Free; Forth => GForth is Free; Fortran => GFortran is Free; Kotlin => Free; Scala => Free; Clojure => Free; Now there are some paid languages like Wolfram Mathematica, Allegro Common Lisp, Lispworks Common Lisp, Delphi Pascal, Dyalog APL, IBM Fortran and some languages with paid tools like Visual Studio for .NET and the Ultimate Jetbrains IDEA IDE for Java/Kotlin/Scala. Clojure has the paid "Cursive" IDE to go with the Jetbrains IDE. However, you can use other Free IDEs to go with most paid tools (Ex: you can use several alternative IDEs for C# and Emacs for Clojure). Also, the "paid" languages are fairly niche in comparison to the free ones at the top. How many people do you know writing Dyalog APL, IBM Fortran, Delphi, and Lisp works programs? How many people do you know writing C#, JavaScript, Java, C, and Python? If we're just talking about software in general, then yes there is a TON of expensive and closed source programs and I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
        hermitdev 7y ago
        All of the Visual Studio supported languages are accessible for free with the Community editions. The paid versions give you more advanced features for understanding, debugging or profiling. You can see the differences at [0]. Personally, I use VS2019 Professional at work, VS2019 Community at home. I don't really miss the extra Professional features at home, but I do wish I had some of the Enterprise features at work. [0] https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/compare/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/compare/
        6thaccount2 7y ago
        That is kind of my whole point though. I'm not working on open source software or at a tiny company, so it isn't free. I'm not sure if I could commercially use it as a solo dev either. Most community editions aren't much better than a trial license in that regard. Let me know if I misunderstand though. I'm not the best at license stuff.
- yaantc 7y ago
  There is a Debian package in the GNU archive, have you tried it instead? It works fine on Debian Buster so should be ok on a recent Ubuntu I guess (but not tested).
  - 6thaccount2 7y ago
    I can try later. What would the command look like? I assume I have to add the package somehow first.
    - Avshalom 7y ago
      sudo apt install ./package (you have to write it like a file address or it ttys to download it)
      - 6thaccount2 7y ago
        It would be that on Debian that already has the package (maybe Ubuntu does as well as they're similar). If not I suppose I'll figure out how to add it to my package manager first.
        Avshalom 7y ago
        no, if you download the package that still works. you have to format the package name as a filepath instead of just the name so you have to use that ./ in front of it (assuming you're in the same directory) but that's all the more it needs.
- lokedhs 7y ago
  What did you have problems with? I wrote the Emacs integration for GNU APL that provides a decent environment for it. All you have to do is to compile and install GNU APL from source, followed by loading the Emacs Lisp code. I created a video showing how it's used. Sorry for the poor quality. I originally planned to make a new one, but I have been working on different projects since then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP4A5CKITnM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP4A5CKITnM
  - 6thaccount2 7y ago
    Thanks for the video! I'll give it a go in a few days when I'm done with a work conference. I tried following the provided instructions in the install guide a few months back and it didn't work out. I can't remember any useful information (sorry), but have a new Linux computer now that might work better. It seems like a pretty cool project! Thanks for all the work you put into it!
thomasfedb 7y ago
I first noticed APL when some mates used is as a trump card in code golf. I find it both intimidating and strangely beautiful.
- Lt_Riza_Hawkeye 7y ago
  APL can do some pretty cool stuff: http://0x0.st/scHG.webm http://0x0.st/scHG.webm
triska 7y ago
Wow, each of ⎕FFT, ⎕GTK and ⎕RE are substantial and impressive additions! Thank you, and congratulations on the new release!
- agumonkey 7y ago
  slight digression, trying to find the repo source I went up https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2019-06/threads.html#00008 https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2019-06/threads.... lots of releases, gnu is kicking hard
  - NikkiA 7y ago
    End of the academic year, makes sense that you'd see a cluster of releases as people wrap-up their research projects and merge their code into various projects.
haolez 7y ago
If I pick up an array language to ramp up on 2019, should I start with APL or J? I know that both of them were created by the same person, and that J is supposed to be an evolution of APL’s approach, but I don’t know if it would make a difference to a beginner like me. I kind of like the weird charset :)
- SifJar 7y ago
  Other options include q, used in a lot of banks and hedge funds, so plenty of opportunity to profit
- coliveira 7y ago
  I think the open source version of J is more mature and has a larger community. It also has a lot of support packages that are not available for open source APL. If you are trying to write real-life projects, J seems to be a better option at this time.
- 6thaccount2 7y ago
  Dyalog APL or J. J is free and Dyalog APL is free for hobby stuff, but costs money to do commercial work.
sizzzzlerz 7y ago
When I was a young lad, the ink on my EE degree still wet, I worked with an older gentleman with a PhD, who used APL on an exotic computer with what looked to me like Sanskrit symbols (or space alien, for all I knew) on the keys. He gave me a couple tutorials but I never could wrap my brain around it. I lost interest and hadn't heard anything about APL for decades until now. I am curious how the symbols used in the language are mapped onto a standard keyboard. Also, does anyone use APL in battle or is it mostly an academic toy?
- Vivtek 7y ago
  Languages descended from APL are very popular among the financial engineering set.
  - xvilka 7y ago
    Do you have any examples or links to confirm that?
    - risubramanian 7y ago
      Check out K, Q, and KDB
    - frostburg 7y ago
      A similar language is used for kdb+.
    - andylynch 7y ago
      Parent is almost certainly referring to KDB https://kx.com/ https://kx.com/
    - jjtheblunt 7y ago
      look up arthur whitney and kx.com, and their Q language for their kdb+ database. Various opensource versions are active.
      - Volt 7y ago
vincent-toups 7y ago
"There are a number of features related to lambdas that are present in other APL interpreters but that are NOT implemented in GNU APL. This includes multiple statements, guards, lexical scoping, and probably more. " The absence of lexical scope is a big wart for me. I'm fairly familiar with J, having used it to do some Bayesian inference for some projects at work, and I eventually concluded that the language family is malformed, in part because of the absence of lexical scoping. Seems like Dyalog APL does have this feature, which makes me want to take a look at it.
- triska 7y ago
  A nice overview of a few interesting Dyalog extensions is Direct Functions in Dyalog APL: https://www.dyalog.com/uploads/documents/Papers/dfns.pdf https://www.dyalog.com/uploads/documents/Papers/dfns.pdf For example, you can write {expr} to introduce a Direct Function (dfn), where expr is an APL expression in which α and ω represent, respectively, the left and right argument of the dfn. Dfns also support local definitions, and recursion with ∇.
  - vincent-toups 7y ago
    Looks neat. After using J for awhile I've come to dislike the who monad/dyad thing. It must be an old Lisper thing, but I wish there was just a regular argument list and all the arguments had the same semantics. I know in J you can used an array of boxed objects to "simulate" "normal" function definitions except that you don't get the rank behavior for those argument lists. Nothing prevents a language from having "normal" functions and also being able to support rank on each argument.
devbat8712 7y ago
The creator of APL was actually originally from my town. Unfortunately that's the only interesting thing about my town. Cool language though, the use of symbols as keywords is... Interesting, but a neat idea
SwellJoe 7y ago
Googling for APL examples is now complicated by Amazon squatting on the same acronym for "Alexa Presentation Language". That's frustrating, as I'm interested in understanding APL a bit better, but I learn from looking at and tinkering with code that does things I already kinda understand how to do in other languages/paradigms. But, I did find APL Wiki which has a lot of good examples of code that does small comprehensible things. https://aplwiki.com/FrontPage https://aplwiki.com/FrontPage
- bin0 7y ago
  I'd give "-alexa -amazon -presentation" a shot; see if that helps. Also maybe add "-site:amazon.com" or "-site:*.amazon.com" (pretty sure that one works).
- smittywerben 7y ago
  Another AWS friendly word is Lambda. Even more annoying is they have bindings for a dozen languages. So you need "Java lambda" and you get "Java AWS Lambda". I need like a law library for code, one that remembers longer than 2013.
garyrob 7y ago
I did my Senior Project for my B.A. in math in APL back in 1978 because it was the only language I had available to me on a functioning machine. I loved it, because it was infinitely more concise than writing in System 360 assembly, which was the only other language I had taught myself! I particularly enjoyed writing entire programs for class in one line, which was frequently doable in APL. The problem was that that capability encouraged you to write "write-only code". It was very easy to write, but... :) Never used APL again, and now care a lot about readability, but I certainly look back at that time fondly!
beagle3 7y ago
iKe+oK is a processing-like environment that runs in the browser based on K, which is an APL dialect: http://johnearnest.github.io/ok/ike/ike.html?gist=149c2eafcfda7f7a334f38e93b579831 http://johnearnest.github.io/ok/ike/ike.html?gist=149c2eafcf... is a fun example, and is a good example of how compact and expressive K (and APL and the rest of this family) is.

121 points by lelf 7y ago

I have a high opinion of GNU APL though I've never used it, from the discussion of GNU APL 1.7's release: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13904688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13904688

6thaccount2 7y ago

I'd like to play with this as it is a free APL that I could use for work without paying a license (like Dyalog APL requires). J is another free array language, but it doesn't use the APL characters that I enjoy. I've had a little trouble in the past getting it to install (this was version 1.7) on Ubuntu. Granted I've never been an expert at installing from source, but a more in-depth installation guide or YouTube tutorial would help some. Thanks for doing this btw! I hope to eventually get to check this out!

jacoblambda 7y ago
BTW the Dyalog license is free for a personal/non-commercial license. The process for getting it is a little weird but the dyalog variant is a pretty nice piece of kit.
- 6thaccount2 7y ago
  Oh I agree Dyalog is super nice and that it is free for personal/hobby use, but using it at work costs ~1k/year. I'm always a bit leery working with such systems when most software is now free. If your company already uses it, that's great and if they already have a site license it is essentially zero cost to use from your point. If you're that weird guy asking to use the heiroglyphics language...it can be a tough sell to management and IT.
  - kgwgk 7y ago
    > most software is now free Is it?
    - 6thaccount2 7y ago
      Language wise yes. Sorry if I wasn't clear. C# => Free; Java => Free; Common Lisp => SBCL is Free; Python => Free; Ruby => Free; C => Free; C++ => Free; Rust => Free; Haskell => Free; JavaScript => Free; Smalltalk => Pharo is Free; Perl => Free; Forth => GForth is Free; Fortran => GFortran is Free; Kotlin => Free; Scala => Free; Clojure => Free; Now there are some paid languages like Wolfram Mathematica, Allegro Common Lisp, Lispworks Common Lisp, Delphi Pascal, Dyalog APL, IBM Fortran and some languages with paid tools like Visual Studio for .NET and the Ultimate Jetbrains IDEA IDE for Java/Kotlin/Scala. Clojure has the paid "Cursive" IDE to go with the Jetbrains IDE. However, you can use other Free IDEs to go with most paid tools (Ex: you can use several alternative IDEs for C# and Emacs for Clojure). Also, the "paid" languages are fairly niche in comparison to the free ones at the top. How many people do you know writing Dyalog APL, IBM Fortran, Delphi, and Lisp works programs? How many people do you know writing C#, JavaScript, Java, C, and Python? If we're just talking about software in general, then yes there is a TON of expensive and closed source programs and I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
      - hermitdev 7y ago
        All of the Visual Studio supported languages are accessible for free with the Community editions. The paid versions give you more advanced features for understanding, debugging or profiling. You can see the differences at [0]. Personally, I use VS2019 Professional at work, VS2019 Community at home. I don't really miss the extra Professional features at home, but I do wish I had some of the Enterprise features at work. [0] https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/compare/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/compare/
        6thaccount2 7y ago
        That is kind of my whole point though. I'm not working on open source software or at a tiny company, so it isn't free. I'm not sure if I could commercially use it as a solo dev either. Most community editions aren't much better than a trial license in that regard. Let me know if I misunderstand though. I'm not the best at license stuff.
yaantc 7y ago
There is a Debian package in the GNU archive, have you tried it instead? It works fine on Debian Buster so should be ok on a recent Ubuntu I guess (but not tested).
- 6thaccount2 7y ago
  I can try later. What would the command look like? I assume I have to add the package somehow first.
  - Avshalom 7y ago
    sudo apt install ./package (you have to write it like a file address or it ttys to download it)
    - 6thaccount2 7y ago
      It would be that on Debian that already has the package (maybe Ubuntu does as well as they're similar). If not I suppose I'll figure out how to add it to my package manager first.
      - Avshalom 7y ago
        no, if you download the package that still works. you have to format the package name as a filepath instead of just the name so you have to use that ./ in front of it (assuming you're in the same directory) but that's all the more it needs.
lokedhs 7y ago
What did you have problems with? I wrote the Emacs integration for GNU APL that provides a decent environment for it. All you have to do is to compile and install GNU APL from source, followed by loading the Emacs Lisp code. I created a video showing how it's used. Sorry for the poor quality. I originally planned to make a new one, but I have been working on different projects since then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP4A5CKITnM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP4A5CKITnM
- 6thaccount2 7y ago
  Thanks for the video! I'll give it a go in a few days when I'm done with a work conference. I tried following the provided instructions in the install guide a few months back and it didn't work out. I can't remember any useful information (sorry), but have a new Linux computer now that might work better. It seems like a pretty cool project! Thanks for all the work you put into it!

thomasfedb 7y ago

I first noticed APL when some mates used is as a trump card in code golf. I find it both intimidating and strangely beautiful.

Lt_Riza_Hawkeye 7y ago
APL can do some pretty cool stuff: http://0x0.st/scHG.webm http://0x0.st/scHG.webm

triska 7y ago

Wow, each of ⎕FFT, ⎕GTK and ⎕RE are substantial and impressive additions! Thank you, and congratulations on the new release!

agumonkey 7y ago
slight digression, trying to find the repo source I went up https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2019-06/threads.html#00008 https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2019-06/threads.... lots of releases, gnu is kicking hard
- NikkiA 7y ago
  End of the academic year, makes sense that you'd see a cluster of releases as people wrap-up their research projects and merge their code into various projects.

haolez 7y ago

If I pick up an array language to ramp up on 2019, should I start with APL or J? I know that both of them were created by the same person, and that J is supposed to be an evolution of APL’s approach, but I don’t know if it would make a difference to a beginner like me. I kind of like the weird charset :)

SifJar 7y ago
Other options include q, used in a lot of banks and hedge funds, so plenty of opportunity to profit
coliveira 7y ago
I think the open source version of J is more mature and has a larger community. It also has a lot of support packages that are not available for open source APL. If you are trying to write real-life projects, J seems to be a better option at this time.
6thaccount2 7y ago
Dyalog APL or J. J is free and Dyalog APL is free for hobby stuff, but costs money to do commercial work.

sizzzzlerz 7y ago

When I was a young lad, the ink on my EE degree still wet, I worked with an older gentleman with a PhD, who used APL on an exotic computer with what looked to me like Sanskrit symbols (or space alien, for all I knew) on the keys. He gave me a couple tutorials but I never could wrap my brain around it. I lost interest and hadn't heard anything about APL for decades until now. I am curious how the symbols used in the language are mapped onto a standard keyboard. Also, does anyone use APL in battle or is it mostly an academic toy?

Vivtek 7y ago
Languages descended from APL are very popular among the financial engineering set.
- xvilka 7y ago
  Do you have any examples or links to confirm that?
  - risubramanian 7y ago
    Check out K, Q, and KDB
  - frostburg 7y ago
    A similar language is used for kdb+.
  - andylynch 7y ago
    Parent is almost certainly referring to KDB https://kx.com/ https://kx.com/
  - jjtheblunt 7y ago
    look up arthur whitney and kx.com, and their Q language for their kdb+ database. Various opensource versions are active.
    - Volt 7y ago

vincent-toups 7y ago

"There are a number of features related to lambdas that are present in other APL interpreters but that are NOT implemented in GNU APL. This includes multiple statements, guards, lexical scoping, and probably more. " The absence of lexical scope is a big wart for me. I'm fairly familiar with J, having used it to do some Bayesian inference for some projects at work, and I eventually concluded that the language family is malformed, in part because of the absence of lexical scoping. Seems like Dyalog APL does have this feature, which makes me want to take a look at it.

triska 7y ago
A nice overview of a few interesting Dyalog extensions is Direct Functions in Dyalog APL: https://www.dyalog.com/uploads/documents/Papers/dfns.pdf https://www.dyalog.com/uploads/documents/Papers/dfns.pdf For example, you can write {expr} to introduce a Direct Function (dfn), where expr is an APL expression in which α and ω represent, respectively, the left and right argument of the dfn. Dfns also support local definitions, and recursion with ∇.
- vincent-toups 7y ago
  Looks neat. After using J for awhile I've come to dislike the who monad/dyad thing. It must be an old Lisper thing, but I wish there was just a regular argument list and all the arguments had the same semantics. I know in J you can used an array of boxed objects to "simulate" "normal" function definitions except that you don't get the rank behavior for those argument lists. Nothing prevents a language from having "normal" functions and also being able to support rank on each argument.

devbat8712 7y ago

The creator of APL was actually originally from my town. Unfortunately that's the only interesting thing about my town. Cool language though, the use of symbols as keywords is... Interesting, but a neat idea

SwellJoe 7y ago

Googling for APL examples is now complicated by Amazon squatting on the same acronym for "Alexa Presentation Language". That's frustrating, as I'm interested in understanding APL a bit better, but I learn from looking at and tinkering with code that does things I already kinda understand how to do in other languages/paradigms. But, I did find APL Wiki which has a lot of good examples of code that does small comprehensible things. https://aplwiki.com/FrontPage https://aplwiki.com/FrontPage

bin0 7y ago
I'd give "-alexa -amazon -presentation" a shot; see if that helps. Also maybe add "-site:amazon.com" or "-site:*.amazon.com" (pretty sure that one works).
smittywerben 7y ago
Another AWS friendly word is Lambda. Even more annoying is they have bindings for a dozen languages. So you need "Java lambda" and you get "Java AWS Lambda". I need like a law library for code, one that remembers longer than 2013.

garyrob 7y ago

I did my Senior Project for my B.A. in math in APL back in 1978 because it was the only language I had available to me on a functioning machine. I loved it, because it was infinitely more concise than writing in System 360 assembly, which was the only other language I had taught myself! I particularly enjoyed writing entire programs for class in one line, which was frequently doable in APL. The problem was that that capability encouraged you to write "write-only code". It was very easy to write, but... :) Never used APL again, and now care a lot about readability, but I certainly look back at that time fondly!

beagle3 7y ago

iKe+oK is a processing-like environment that runs in the browser based on K, which is an APL dialect: http://johnearnest.github.io/ok/ike/ike.html?gist=149c2eafcfda7f7a334f38e93b579831 http://johnearnest.github.io/ok/ike/ike.html?gist=149c2eafcf... is a fun example, and is a good example of how compact and expressive K (and APL and the rest of this family) is.