7 ms·

German police officers have very limited power to do anything at all. What you mentioned is one sort of loophole they use to be able to “catch” someone: you to

by mk89 7y ago

German police officers have very limited power to do anything at all. What you mentioned is one sort of loophole they use to be able to “catch” someone: you touched me! Oh, regarding the policemen trying to hold your arms. Never seen that as a first action, and typically when that happens is a sign that you have actually done something, otherwise they don’t touch you.

dschu 7y ago
https://twitter.com/timluedde/status/1142489729771982850?s=21 https://twitter.com/timluedde/status/1142489729771982850?s=2... #2: https://twitter.com/oekofuzzi/status/1142719827376857088?s=21 https://twitter.com/oekofuzzi/status/1142719827376857088?s=2... Update: More Video links.
- mk89 7y ago
  Power != law. This policeman risks his job now. If it was in another country, I would laugh it off. Here in Germany this will become a national case.
  - x3ro 7y ago
    With all due respect, that is ridiculous. There have been dozens such cases over the last years, with little to no repercussions the police officers. Amnesty international has repeatedly criticised police violence in Germany. This is not a one-off problem.
    - mk89 7y ago
      Fair enough I don’t know all the cases. Could you tell me how you would have done it? To hold those protesters with a limited amount of policemen?
      - kuschku 7y ago
        > Could you tell me how you would have done it? To hold those protesters with a limited amount of policemen? By not holding them. The right to protest outranks the right to property.
        VonGallifrey 7y ago
        > The right to protest outranks the right to property. And where is that defined? Your rights don't allow you to deprive someone else of their rights.
      - x3ro 7y ago
        Simply don't. Arguing that protestors should not enter the mine "because its dangerous" and beating them up to get them to stop entering doesn't make sense. This is similar to the recent Tweetstorm I read about a woman having a panic attack and the police shouting at her to calm down. In this scenario the senior officers in charge should've known this would never work and ordered their men to stand down.
        omginternets 7y ago
        >Simply don't. Arguing that protestors should not enter the mine "because its dangerous" and beating them up to get them to stop entering doesn't make sense. I'm not sure that makes sense either. The level of harm isn't nearly the same -- mines are notoriously life-threatening places. The degree of economic harm isn't nearly the same either. I can see where you're coming from, but surely you can see how many might consider use of force justified, here.
    - nebalee 7y ago
      To add to that, there is no independent agency in Germany that is tasked with investigating police misconduct. All cases are investigated by other policemen.
  - wtdata 7y ago
    Exactly how were these policemen supposed to get these people to stop (or even attacking them since they were in the clear minority there), since they aren't using guns?
    - mk89 7y ago
      If you ask me? There is no way without proper preparation. It’s a wide area and it requires hundreds of policemen. So from this point of view, this is the usual “let’s put tape over the holes, and let’s hope the water doesn’t leak”. It’s like releasing software without testing it first, it can work....maybe not :) So probably by hitting a bit they were trying to achieve fear so that people would not go further? No idea, for me what they did is not violent. At least that’s not how I define abuse of power, but maybe because I come from a country where policemen really do abuse power.
x3ro 7y ago
What do you mean by limited power? The recent modifications to StGb 113 and 114 are _very_ open in what they describe as an attack on a police officer, which gets you a minimum sentence of 3 years.. Edit: My apologies, my memory was vastly wrong. The minimum sentence is six months, not 3 years.
- mk89 7y ago
  Did you ever speak to policemen not as a citizen but as a friend? Maybe you would understand that’s a shitty job (because it has to deal mostly with shitty situations) always frowned upon and not even well paid. Why does anyone have to risk anything while going to work? We are not talking about firefighters here dealing with natural disasters. We are talking about people who are regularly laughed at, insulted, sometimes hit, etc. Everyone knows how fragile the German police is today.
  - x3ro 7y ago
    What do you mean by fragile? I agree that it's a shit job, but I don't understand how that should make shitty behavior okay. With the power that's given to you as a police officer, the expectation simply must be that you don't misuse that power. Everything else is unacceptable, since you're the person enforcing the law. Who's gonna hold you accountable?
    - mk89 7y ago
      I agree, I am just wondering when power starts to become misused from the legal point of view, because if you put yourself in those shoes you will understand that they are humans like me and you trying to enforce laws upon people that don’t give a damn about those laws. I really don’t doubt that there are bad apples abusing their power, and in some cases it’s really like that, however if you look at the overall, these policemen are often laughed at and insulted, or even hit. And what’s the payment for it? You mentioned that they increased the sentence to 3 years. Sure, when? Considering that prisons are full and that with a good lawyer you can get away with it fast.
pluma 7y ago
You're conflating patrol officers with riot officers. In other words: police at protests or dealing with large crowds behave very differently from police officers alone or in smaller groups dealing with individuals in everyday situations. The most important factor is that while the latter is mostly a personal exchange between individuals, the former involves tactics and strategies which are largely down to the politics of whatever police is involved. In some regions the riot police is trained to deescalate and will try to defuse tense situations by maintaining their distance as much as possible and avoiding any forms of violence. Other regions are notorious for rapid escalation to shut down any potential threat early on even if it means causing injuries and provoking violent responses. Because of how riot police works in Germany you never entirely know what regional police you'll encounter at a protest, demonstration or large-scale event (e.g. you might be in Cologne and the riot police might be from Dortmund), so usually people are only aware of these differences if they've been at a number of events and have paid attention to what police was involved -- or if they personally know police officers from different regions.

by mk89 7y ago

dschu 7y ago

https://twitter.com/timluedde/status/1142489729771982850?s=21 https://twitter.com/timluedde/status/1142489729771982850?s=2... #2: https://twitter.com/oekofuzzi/status/1142719827376857088?s=21 https://twitter.com/oekofuzzi/status/1142719827376857088?s=2... Update: More Video links.

mk89 7y ago
Power != law. This policeman risks his job now. If it was in another country, I would laugh it off. Here in Germany this will become a national case.
- x3ro 7y ago
  With all due respect, that is ridiculous. There have been dozens such cases over the last years, with little to no repercussions the police officers. Amnesty international has repeatedly criticised police violence in Germany. This is not a one-off problem.
  - mk89 7y ago
    Fair enough I don’t know all the cases. Could you tell me how you would have done it? To hold those protesters with a limited amount of policemen?
    - kuschku 7y ago
      > Could you tell me how you would have done it? To hold those protesters with a limited amount of policemen? By not holding them. The right to protest outranks the right to property.
      - VonGallifrey 7y ago
        > The right to protest outranks the right to property. And where is that defined? Your rights don't allow you to deprive someone else of their rights.
    - x3ro 7y ago
      Simply don't. Arguing that protestors should not enter the mine "because its dangerous" and beating them up to get them to stop entering doesn't make sense. This is similar to the recent Tweetstorm I read about a woman having a panic attack and the police shouting at her to calm down. In this scenario the senior officers in charge should've known this would never work and ordered their men to stand down.
      - omginternets 7y ago
        >Simply don't. Arguing that protestors should not enter the mine "because its dangerous" and beating them up to get them to stop entering doesn't make sense. I'm not sure that makes sense either. The level of harm isn't nearly the same -- mines are notoriously life-threatening places. The degree of economic harm isn't nearly the same either. I can see where you're coming from, but surely you can see how many might consider use of force justified, here.
  - nebalee 7y ago
    To add to that, there is no independent agency in Germany that is tasked with investigating police misconduct. All cases are investigated by other policemen.
- wtdata 7y ago
  Exactly how were these policemen supposed to get these people to stop (or even attacking them since they were in the clear minority there), since they aren't using guns?
  - mk89 7y ago
    If you ask me? There is no way without proper preparation. It’s a wide area and it requires hundreds of policemen. So from this point of view, this is the usual “let’s put tape over the holes, and let’s hope the water doesn’t leak”. It’s like releasing software without testing it first, it can work....maybe not :) So probably by hitting a bit they were trying to achieve fear so that people would not go further? No idea, for me what they did is not violent. At least that’s not how I define abuse of power, but maybe because I come from a country where policemen really do abuse power.

x3ro 7y ago

What do you mean by limited power? The recent modifications to StGb 113 and 114 are _very_ open in what they describe as an attack on a police officer, which gets you a minimum sentence of 3 years.. Edit: My apologies, my memory was vastly wrong. The minimum sentence is six months, not 3 years.

mk89 7y ago
Did you ever speak to policemen not as a citizen but as a friend? Maybe you would understand that’s a shitty job (because it has to deal mostly with shitty situations) always frowned upon and not even well paid. Why does anyone have to risk anything while going to work? We are not talking about firefighters here dealing with natural disasters. We are talking about people who are regularly laughed at, insulted, sometimes hit, etc. Everyone knows how fragile the German police is today.
- x3ro 7y ago
  What do you mean by fragile? I agree that it's a shit job, but I don't understand how that should make shitty behavior okay. With the power that's given to you as a police officer, the expectation simply must be that you don't misuse that power. Everything else is unacceptable, since you're the person enforcing the law. Who's gonna hold you accountable?
  - mk89 7y ago
    I agree, I am just wondering when power starts to become misused from the legal point of view, because if you put yourself in those shoes you will understand that they are humans like me and you trying to enforce laws upon people that don’t give a damn about those laws. I really don’t doubt that there are bad apples abusing their power, and in some cases it’s really like that, however if you look at the overall, these policemen are often laughed at and insulted, or even hit. And what’s the payment for it? You mentioned that they increased the sentence to 3 years. Sure, when? Considering that prisons are full and that with a good lawyer you can get away with it fast.

pluma 7y ago

You're conflating patrol officers with riot officers. In other words: police at protests or dealing with large crowds behave very differently from police officers alone or in smaller groups dealing with individuals in everyday situations. The most important factor is that while the latter is mostly a personal exchange between individuals, the former involves tactics and strategies which are largely down to the politics of whatever police is involved. In some regions the riot police is trained to deescalate and will try to defuse tense situations by maintaining their distance as much as possible and avoiding any forms of violence. Other regions are notorious for rapid escalation to shut down any potential threat early on even if it means causing injuries and provoking violent responses. Because of how riot police works in Germany you never entirely know what regional police you'll encounter at a protest, demonstration or large-scale event (e.g. you might be in Cologne and the riot police might be from Dortmund), so usually people are only aware of these differences if they've been at a number of events and have paid attention to what police was involved -- or if they personally know police officers from different regions.