8 ms·

One thing to note when reading such reports with quotes the German police, is that the bar for a police officer being "hurt" is ridiculously low in Germany. E.g

by x3ro 7y ago

One thing to note when reading such reports with quotes the German police, is that the bar for a police officer being "hurt" is ridiculously low in Germany. E.g. if an officer is grabbing your arm, and you try to yank it free, this constitutes "assaulting a police officer" and will go into that number. In past protests the police also reported officers being hurt without qualifying that they had been hurt by other officers employing tear gas against protesters. Edit: to add at least one source, here's Spiegel Online reporting that the police counted dehydration and circulatory issues as "injured officers" (German unfortunately) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/g20-viel-weniger-verletzte-polizisten-als-angegeben-a-1157913-amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/...

tastroder 7y ago
> One thing to note when reading such reports with quotes the German police, is that the bar for a police officer being "hurt" is ridiculously low in Germany. Where would that bar be higher, especially when reporting these numbers in the context of protest deployments?
- x3ro 7y ago
  I don't understand the question? I'm saying this because such numbers often spark anti-protester sentiment in the rest of the population, and the police is contributing by reporting exaggerated numbers of injured officers. I did not mean to make a comparison to anywhere else, since I wouldn't know how police reports such numbers in other countries.
  - tastroder 7y ago
    Oh, I see. I was just wondering about what the point was tbh. "Harmed by dehydration" sounded like a useful metric to have internally but if you're getting at the public perception I'd have to clearly agree. Just saw it as more of a lack in good reporting as opposed to actually tracking how people get injured in the first placed.
    - pluma 7y ago
      The police has no reason to release less ambiguous numbers because over-reporting injuries actually works out in their favour by shaping public perception as "police attacked by violent protestors" rather than "police escalating a protest by using violence and protesters then resisting". Politicians likewise excuse this by saying that there are no reliable reports of misconduct while also only considering reports reliable that are directly sourced from the police. "Who watches the watchmen?" in this case is "the watchman". Requests for more accountability for police violence was basically shot down with "while there are many accusations of police violence, barely any of them have resulted in convictions".
  - usrusr 7y ago
    It doesn't necessarily have to be a conscious move to put the protesters in a bad light: when military historians look at a battle or war, they make very little distinction between casualties from direct enemy action and casualties from bad environmental and supply conditions (e.g. La Grande Armée vs Russia, the famous infographic). You should not do that, apply military metrics to civilian unrest, but I guess it happens. That being said, there are definitely elements in and around German police forces that will jump at every opportunity to put protesters in a bad light.
    - majewsky 7y ago
      > It doesn't necessarily have to be a conscious move to put the protesters in a bad light Sure, but journalists ought to be aware both of deliberate disinformation attempts and of unconscious biases.
mk89 7y ago
German police officers have very limited power to do anything at all. What you mentioned is one sort of loophole they use to be able to “catch” someone: you touched me! Oh, regarding the policemen trying to hold your arms. Never seen that as a first action, and typically when that happens is a sign that you have actually done something, otherwise they don’t touch you.
- dschu 7y ago
  https://twitter.com/timluedde/status/1142489729771982850?s=21 https://twitter.com/timluedde/status/1142489729771982850?s=2... #2: https://twitter.com/oekofuzzi/status/1142719827376857088?s=21 https://twitter.com/oekofuzzi/status/1142719827376857088?s=2... Update: More Video links.
  - mk89 7y ago
    Power != law. This policeman risks his job now. If it was in another country, I would laugh it off. Here in Germany this will become a national case.
    - x3ro 7y ago
      With all due respect, that is ridiculous. There have been dozens such cases over the last years, with little to no repercussions the police officers. Amnesty international has repeatedly criticised police violence in Germany. This is not a one-off problem.
      - mk89 7y ago
        Fair enough I don’t know all the cases. Could you tell me how you would have done it? To hold those protesters with a limited amount of policemen?
        kuschku 7y ago
        > Could you tell me how you would have done it? To hold those protesters with a limited amount of policemen? By not holding them. The right to protest outranks the right to property.
blattimwind 7y ago
> E.g. if an officer is grabbing your arm, and you try to yank it free, this constitutes "assaulting a police officer" and will go into that number. Obviously it's at least obstruction of a police officer. > In past protests the police also reported officers being hurt without qualifying that they had been hurt by other officers employing tear gas against protesters. > Edit: to add at least one source, here's Spiegel Online reporting that the police counted dehydration and circulatory issues as "injured officers" (German unfortunately) But they were injured during the police action?
- Semaphor 7y ago
  > But they were injured during the police action? Yes, but to many, it might sound like injuries due to protestors attacking them.
- pluma 7y ago
  If a police officer is doing something illegal, you are not legally required to comply. Also, Germany in theory has pretty strict laws about what is considered an appropriate level of force (which is why you're considerably less likely to see a German police officer reach for their gun because even drawing the gun is considered a massive escalation and may require them to file paperwork later). The objection to the reporting isn't that they weren't injured, it's that the numbers are used to portray protestors as violent even when the injuries were the direct result of police violence. If I punch you in the face and break my hand, it's at least extremely misleading to report that as a fight in which both parties suffered injuries (mostly because "fight" implies you fought back).
- x3ro 7y ago
  If a police officer stops me for speeding and while giving me a fine dies of a heat stroke because it's really hot and they are dehydrated, did I kill that police officer? Because that seems to be the logic implied here.
  - Lev1a 7y ago
    No, in that scenario he "died in the line of duty" or something similar to that.
odiroot 7y ago
> One thing to note when reading such reports with quotes the German police, is that the bar for a police officer being "hurt" is ridiculously low in Germany. I'm totally okay with it. One thing to note, at least in Berlin where I live, there's huge contempt and disrespect towards police. Some criminals (calling themselves "protesters") are literally throwing rocks, cobblestones, bottles (or at times Molotov cocktails) at policemen. This is totally despicable and should never be accepted. At the same time police is heavily underfunded and constrained in their means by ignorant (malevolent?) local government.
- pluma 7y ago
  Yet at the same time the police manages to identify, process and charge said protestors just fine but seems to be absolutely incapable of doing anything about literal nazis openly performing illegal salutes and calling for violence, even if they have it on tape and have police officers present and witnessing. There's a reason Germans left of center have a disdain for the police and it's obvious why that tends to escalate. If you're okay with police officers injuring themselves while violently suppressing protestors being counted as "injured by protestors" you should also be fine with the police being held to the same standards. Somehow even if someone dies in police custody the investigations never amount to anything though, and the government is okay with that because the police investigated itself and said the police isn't doing anything wrong.
  - pard68 7y ago
    Wait, is that illegal in Germany? Do Germans not have a right to free speechi
    - claudius 7y ago
      There is no right to free speech in Germany. The constitution protects freedom of opinion and you are allowed to voice your opinion in most cases, but there are restrictions (e.g. demagoguery).
    - pluma 7y ago
hutzlibu 7y ago
Along that line I remember police reported being attacked by protesters with allmost chemical weapons or acid ... which turned out to be soap bubbles.

by x3ro 7y ago

tastroder 7y ago

> One thing to note when reading such reports with quotes the German police, is that the bar for a police officer being "hurt" is ridiculously low in Germany. Where would that bar be higher, especially when reporting these numbers in the context of protest deployments?

x3ro 7y ago
I don't understand the question? I'm saying this because such numbers often spark anti-protester sentiment in the rest of the population, and the police is contributing by reporting exaggerated numbers of injured officers. I did not mean to make a comparison to anywhere else, since I wouldn't know how police reports such numbers in other countries.
- tastroder 7y ago
  Oh, I see. I was just wondering about what the point was tbh. "Harmed by dehydration" sounded like a useful metric to have internally but if you're getting at the public perception I'd have to clearly agree. Just saw it as more of a lack in good reporting as opposed to actually tracking how people get injured in the first placed.
  - pluma 7y ago
    The police has no reason to release less ambiguous numbers because over-reporting injuries actually works out in their favour by shaping public perception as "police attacked by violent protestors" rather than "police escalating a protest by using violence and protesters then resisting". Politicians likewise excuse this by saying that there are no reliable reports of misconduct while also only considering reports reliable that are directly sourced from the police. "Who watches the watchmen?" in this case is "the watchman". Requests for more accountability for police violence was basically shot down with "while there are many accusations of police violence, barely any of them have resulted in convictions".
- usrusr 7y ago
  It doesn't necessarily have to be a conscious move to put the protesters in a bad light: when military historians look at a battle or war, they make very little distinction between casualties from direct enemy action and casualties from bad environmental and supply conditions (e.g. La Grande Armée vs Russia, the famous infographic). You should not do that, apply military metrics to civilian unrest, but I guess it happens. That being said, there are definitely elements in and around German police forces that will jump at every opportunity to put protesters in a bad light.
  - majewsky 7y ago
    > It doesn't necessarily have to be a conscious move to put the protesters in a bad light Sure, but journalists ought to be aware both of deliberate disinformation attempts and of unconscious biases.

mk89 7y ago

German police officers have very limited power to do anything at all. What you mentioned is one sort of loophole they use to be able to “catch” someone: you touched me! Oh, regarding the policemen trying to hold your arms. Never seen that as a first action, and typically when that happens is a sign that you have actually done something, otherwise they don’t touch you.

dschu 7y ago
https://twitter.com/timluedde/status/1142489729771982850?s=21 https://twitter.com/timluedde/status/1142489729771982850?s=2... #2: https://twitter.com/oekofuzzi/status/1142719827376857088?s=21 https://twitter.com/oekofuzzi/status/1142719827376857088?s=2... Update: More Video links.
- mk89 7y ago
  Power != law. This policeman risks his job now. If it was in another country, I would laugh it off. Here in Germany this will become a national case.
  - x3ro 7y ago
    With all due respect, that is ridiculous. There have been dozens such cases over the last years, with little to no repercussions the police officers. Amnesty international has repeatedly criticised police violence in Germany. This is not a one-off problem.
    - mk89 7y ago
      Fair enough I don’t know all the cases. Could you tell me how you would have done it? To hold those protesters with a limited amount of policemen?
      - kuschku 7y ago
        > Could you tell me how you would have done it? To hold those protesters with a limited amount of policemen? By not holding them. The right to protest outranks the right to property.

blattimwind 7y ago

> E.g. if an officer is grabbing your arm, and you try to yank it free, this constitutes "assaulting a police officer" and will go into that number. Obviously it's at least obstruction of a police officer. > In past protests the police also reported officers being hurt without qualifying that they had been hurt by other officers employing tear gas against protesters. > Edit: to add at least one source, here's Spiegel Online reporting that the police counted dehydration and circulatory issues as "injured officers" (German unfortunately) But they were injured during the police action?

Semaphor 7y ago
> But they were injured during the police action? Yes, but to many, it might sound like injuries due to protestors attacking them.
pluma 7y ago
If a police officer is doing something illegal, you are not legally required to comply. Also, Germany in theory has pretty strict laws about what is considered an appropriate level of force (which is why you're considerably less likely to see a German police officer reach for their gun because even drawing the gun is considered a massive escalation and may require them to file paperwork later). The objection to the reporting isn't that they weren't injured, it's that the numbers are used to portray protestors as violent even when the injuries were the direct result of police violence. If I punch you in the face and break my hand, it's at least extremely misleading to report that as a fight in which both parties suffered injuries (mostly because "fight" implies you fought back).
x3ro 7y ago
If a police officer stops me for speeding and while giving me a fine dies of a heat stroke because it's really hot and they are dehydrated, did I kill that police officer? Because that seems to be the logic implied here.
- Lev1a 7y ago
  No, in that scenario he "died in the line of duty" or something similar to that.

odiroot 7y ago

> One thing to note when reading such reports with quotes the German police, is that the bar for a police officer being "hurt" is ridiculously low in Germany. I'm totally okay with it. One thing to note, at least in Berlin where I live, there's huge contempt and disrespect towards police. Some criminals (calling themselves "protesters") are literally throwing rocks, cobblestones, bottles (or at times Molotov cocktails) at policemen. This is totally despicable and should never be accepted. At the same time police is heavily underfunded and constrained in their means by ignorant (malevolent?) local government.

pluma 7y ago
Yet at the same time the police manages to identify, process and charge said protestors just fine but seems to be absolutely incapable of doing anything about literal nazis openly performing illegal salutes and calling for violence, even if they have it on tape and have police officers present and witnessing. There's a reason Germans left of center have a disdain for the police and it's obvious why that tends to escalate. If you're okay with police officers injuring themselves while violently suppressing protestors being counted as "injured by protestors" you should also be fine with the police being held to the same standards. Somehow even if someone dies in police custody the investigations never amount to anything though, and the government is okay with that because the police investigated itself and said the police isn't doing anything wrong.
- pard68 7y ago
  Wait, is that illegal in Germany? Do Germans not have a right to free speechi
  - claudius 7y ago
    There is no right to free speech in Germany. The constitution protects freedom of opinion and you are allowed to voice your opinion in most cases, but there are restrictions (e.g. demagoguery).
  - pluma 7y ago

hutzlibu 7y ago

Along that line I remember police reported being attacked by protesters with allmost chemical weapons or acid ... which turned out to be soap bubbles.